kuzano
Veteran
Understand the nature of scammers......
Understand the nature of scammers......
I am highly suspicious and overly cautious with any online money transactions.
The key to developing a healthy respect for scammers is to first understand that they are (or are assisted by) computer programmers (criminal ones, but programmers nonetheless). Secondly, they know far more about the transit routes and weaknesses of IP addressing (Internet Protocol) than I will ever know on my best day. With this in mind, I am willing to say that the weakest of them are ten times smarter than I am, as regards this kind of activity on the internet.
Now, having admitted this, let me say that for the last 17 years, the bulk of my income has been derived by computer consulting on hardware, software and network administration. In addition, I teach community education classes on computers and software, with one class being Troubleshooting Security and Software Problems (Antivirus, Spyware, Adware, Firewalls, etc)
In spite of that, I expect every day to be taken by one of these criminals that can surely outsmart me.... but not yet, so far.
I just had a close friend get aced out of $400 on a Craiglist offering for an Apple laptop. It was a Western Union (common) scam spoken to on the Craigslist site, as he read after the money was gone for good. It was also Craigslist and NOT local, by any stretch of the imagination. The sucking in point for my friend was that the computer should easily have been $800. Greed, followed by Sloth (no care), Envy (Others had what he wanted) and ............
Craigslist should never be other than local in nature, with hand to hand and eye to eye contact and heavenly green money (or whatever yours is)
I never transact any business over the internet using real credit cards, bank drafts, etc.
I use Paypal, with NO hope of any security from them whatsoever. They simply expidite the money changing hands. My funding device is a PrePaid cash card that makes use of the Visa/Mastercard system. There is never money in my Paypal account, nor in the cash card unless a transaction is taking place. I immediately transfer funds out of Paypal into the Cash Card account, and if I can't do that, the goods stay in my hands until I can transfer the money.
It's a freaking mine field out there folks. Ya puts up yer money and ya takes your chances.
The current count on all these hundreds of thousands of scams taking place at any given time is that 5% of the scams result in financial loss, and a good many more result in very real identity theft.
OH, AND AS REGARDS PAYPAL--- VISIT WWW.PAYPALSUCKS.COM
I still use PayPal, but in vastly different ways than before visiting this site.
Understand the nature of scammers......
I am highly suspicious and overly cautious with any online money transactions.
The key to developing a healthy respect for scammers is to first understand that they are (or are assisted by) computer programmers (criminal ones, but programmers nonetheless). Secondly, they know far more about the transit routes and weaknesses of IP addressing (Internet Protocol) than I will ever know on my best day. With this in mind, I am willing to say that the weakest of them are ten times smarter than I am, as regards this kind of activity on the internet.
Now, having admitted this, let me say that for the last 17 years, the bulk of my income has been derived by computer consulting on hardware, software and network administration. In addition, I teach community education classes on computers and software, with one class being Troubleshooting Security and Software Problems (Antivirus, Spyware, Adware, Firewalls, etc)
In spite of that, I expect every day to be taken by one of these criminals that can surely outsmart me.... but not yet, so far.
I just had a close friend get aced out of $400 on a Craiglist offering for an Apple laptop. It was a Western Union (common) scam spoken to on the Craigslist site, as he read after the money was gone for good. It was also Craigslist and NOT local, by any stretch of the imagination. The sucking in point for my friend was that the computer should easily have been $800. Greed, followed by Sloth (no care), Envy (Others had what he wanted) and ............
Craigslist should never be other than local in nature, with hand to hand and eye to eye contact and heavenly green money (or whatever yours is)
I never transact any business over the internet using real credit cards, bank drafts, etc.
I use Paypal, with NO hope of any security from them whatsoever. They simply expidite the money changing hands. My funding device is a PrePaid cash card that makes use of the Visa/Mastercard system. There is never money in my Paypal account, nor in the cash card unless a transaction is taking place. I immediately transfer funds out of Paypal into the Cash Card account, and if I can't do that, the goods stay in my hands until I can transfer the money.
It's a freaking mine field out there folks. Ya puts up yer money and ya takes your chances.
The current count on all these hundreds of thousands of scams taking place at any given time is that 5% of the scams result in financial loss, and a good many more result in very real identity theft.
OH, AND AS REGARDS PAYPAL--- VISIT WWW.PAYPALSUCKS.COM
I still use PayPal, but in vastly different ways than before visiting this site.
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myoptic3
Well-known
You are fortunate to have stopped things at the 11th hour, even though you took a big hit on the shipping. craigslist is absolutely full of scammers, so you might want to stick to RFF, photo.net classifieds, and ebay (in that order) in the future. I don't think you showed any lack of common sense, since that was your first experience w/ paypal. Internet forums attract some rude jerks, and if I were you I would give those cretins that seem to lack common civility hell w/ a PM.
Since paypal requires you to have a bank account listed w/ them, here is what I would suggest. Open a savings account and keep a minimal amount in there just to satisfy their bank requirements. That way, if you get hacked they can't get but a pittance. Then, add a credit card to your paypal account. In the future, when you buy something, use your credit card. Once you get the item and if all is well, pay off the credit card. You can do a chargeback w/ a credit card if you are scammed on a purchase. If you are selling something that won't help, so your best policy when dealing w/ someone unknown, and especially in another country, would be to ship only when the funds have cleared your paypal account and have been transferred to your bank account. Doing your banking online will be the way to go w/ all this, and most banks will let you do that for free. Just be grateful things turned out as well as they did. Personally i think the guy that was receiving all of these "unsolicited" items was the scammer and he scammed the fuzz.
I also agree w/ Blake. Close your paypal account NOW. Then reopen it later using just a bank account w/ a minimal amount in it. And give paypal an email address that you use only for paypal. Open the paypal email account using a "virtual" name and address. You have to cover all the tracks, and people who get and receive your emails do not need to have your personal information.
Since paypal requires you to have a bank account listed w/ them, here is what I would suggest. Open a savings account and keep a minimal amount in there just to satisfy their bank requirements. That way, if you get hacked they can't get but a pittance. Then, add a credit card to your paypal account. In the future, when you buy something, use your credit card. Once you get the item and if all is well, pay off the credit card. You can do a chargeback w/ a credit card if you are scammed on a purchase. If you are selling something that won't help, so your best policy when dealing w/ someone unknown, and especially in another country, would be to ship only when the funds have cleared your paypal account and have been transferred to your bank account. Doing your banking online will be the way to go w/ all this, and most banks will let you do that for free. Just be grateful things turned out as well as they did. Personally i think the guy that was receiving all of these "unsolicited" items was the scammer and he scammed the fuzz.
I also agree w/ Blake. Close your paypal account NOW. Then reopen it later using just a bank account w/ a minimal amount in it. And give paypal an email address that you use only for paypal. Open the paypal email account using a "virtual" name and address. You have to cover all the tracks, and people who get and receive your emails do not need to have your personal information.
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M. Valdemar
Well-known
You may think I'm a "rude jerk", but I was giving him serious information which he was incapable of realizing himself. (he still might be incapable of realizing it. some people are just not made for eBay or online transactions)
On the other hand, your advice to him is ineffectual and some of it borders on outlandish. Having funds "clear PayPal and putting them in your bank account" accomplishes nothing.
"Personally i think the guy that was receiving all of these "unsolicited" items was the scammer and he scammed the fuzz." is preposterous. This scam is not designed to get a few cheap cameras delivered to someone's real address, it's purpose is to collect personal data, and give the data to even better hackers who will use the information to wreak havoc.
With your "insights", you're a perfect mark yourself. You think you've got it all figured out, the best target of all.
The best way to protect yourself is not to go through all these financial histrionics, but to recognize the "scams" instantly and not fall for them. It's really quite simple not to get "scammed". Just think before you act and heed all the common warnings which are endlessly posted by others. Think before you act.
In reality, if you are a person who cannot INSTANTLY SEE THAT SOMETHING IS A FRAUD, admit it to yourself and do not try to conduct transactions online.
Some people should not be buying/selling online for numerous reasons. Try to realize your limitations if you are one of them. The arrogance of thinking you can do something you are not capable of doing is the source of many internet disasters. Hubris causes remorse. You may not be as smart as you think you are.
On the other hand, your advice to him is ineffectual and some of it borders on outlandish. Having funds "clear PayPal and putting them in your bank account" accomplishes nothing.
"Personally i think the guy that was receiving all of these "unsolicited" items was the scammer and he scammed the fuzz." is preposterous. This scam is not designed to get a few cheap cameras delivered to someone's real address, it's purpose is to collect personal data, and give the data to even better hackers who will use the information to wreak havoc.
With your "insights", you're a perfect mark yourself. You think you've got it all figured out, the best target of all.
The best way to protect yourself is not to go through all these financial histrionics, but to recognize the "scams" instantly and not fall for them. It's really quite simple not to get "scammed". Just think before you act and heed all the common warnings which are endlessly posted by others. Think before you act.
In reality, if you are a person who cannot INSTANTLY SEE THAT SOMETHING IS A FRAUD, admit it to yourself and do not try to conduct transactions online.
Some people should not be buying/selling online for numerous reasons. Try to realize your limitations if you are one of them. The arrogance of thinking you can do something you are not capable of doing is the source of many internet disasters. Hubris causes remorse. You may not be as smart as you think you are.
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chippy
foo was here
much appreciated!!thanks for going to the time and trouble to let us know. its all very well for some to suggest that alarm bells should of sounded (even if in hindsight) and probably they should have but the fact is they didnt in this case for you. some people are more informed (i think someone insinuated intelligent) about the methods scammers use. and whilst the answers by all, by enlarge have been very helpfull i dont see how referring to one as an idiot or lacking common sence is constructive, unless perhaps self serving or the slap across the face method lol!
overall i am grateful to all whom have posted. this forum is just one more avenue to be aware and informed of the methods scammers use.
a question tho...i have never tried (well i did once but not hard), but can a person take back funds paid to another through Pay Pal? i dont remember seeing that as an option is all. a couple of times i have sent funds to a friend in Germany (he buys cameras on my behalf) and accidently forgot to click on Euro instead of Australian $. i remeber looking to cancel it some way but couldnt...not that it mattered in this instance because he simply returned the funds to me.
LOl this and the origional comment was kinda funny if it wasnt for the fact it comes across as insulting. haha i guess if it was a $10000 Hassleblad or Leica set up it would be a lot better! haha In that case i can imagine catching a plane and camping on the doorstep when the parcel arrives and stealing it back LOL
Yashica Lynx 14 insnt a camera i would likely have but from what little i know of it, it seems to have some redeeming qualities; super fast lens 7 element 5 group, parralax corrected etc
chippy
foo was here
no doubt as per the some of the replies the point of the scam is to obtain personal details. no doubt Greyhound Flyer you need to take steps to protect what you can. change passwords, close and reopen accounts and credit cards, email addreses ...everything you can possibly think of
bmattock
Veteran
Not many people react well to being given useful information whilst being told how utterly stupid they are at the same time. Just an observation.
kuzano
Veteran
Not if you read the PayPal agreement closely
Not if you read the PayPal agreement closely
I don't believe you can use the Visa/Mastercard protection if you read the PayPal agreement closely, which is why I posted the PayPalSucks site.
Apparently, language in their agreement negates your ability to do a chargeback if you use your credit card in conjunction with the completion of a payment through PayPal.
Not if you read the PayPal agreement closely
I don't believe you can use the Visa/Mastercard protection if you read the PayPal agreement closely, which is why I posted the PayPalSucks site.
Apparently, language in their agreement negates your ability to do a chargeback if you use your credit card in conjunction with the completion of a payment through PayPal.
kuzano
Veteran
Hmmm. Oh Well and How appropriate is this???
Hmmm. Oh Well and How appropriate is this???
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20080406/tc_pcworld/144129
From Yahoo, just now.
Hmmm. Oh Well and How appropriate is this???
http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20080406/tc_pcworld/144129
From Yahoo, just now.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
Do you have Asperger's? From the tone of some of your posts I have to wonder.
M. Valdemar
Well-known
If you tell someone the truth or something they don't want to hear directly and clearly, it may not be politically correct or tactful. Some people get very offended.
You can label it Asberger's or whatever you want. This may be more cultural. In the modern world, we make special words to hide the truth. We never call anything what it is anymore. "Retarded" becomes "special needs". "Handicapped" becomes "challenged". It's all a form of Orwellian Newspeak.
Some cultures react differently to direct speaking. In Japan, if someone wants to turn down your proposal, they will not say "no".
They will say they have to "study it further", they will make a hissing sound, they will say "probably", but not "no". This drives Westerners in Japan crazy sometimes.
So, someone posts on an internet forum about a dangerously foolish behavior.
Do you say "Oh, I feel for you, those bad mens on the intertubes have no morals"? Do you say "How brilliant you are, you got your camera back"?
Or do you say "That was pretty dumb. Sorry, I don't think you realize that you entered your name and password, and the money you viewed in your PayPal account might not even have been on the PayPal site. You better be careful, you might not be smart enough to do this."?
Or do you say "Oh, what a shame", when the OP comes back to post next week that his credit has been ruined, that money has been transferred from his bank account, and that he blames it on PayPal, the man in the moon, society, anyone but himself?
You can label it Asberger's or whatever you want. This may be more cultural. In the modern world, we make special words to hide the truth. We never call anything what it is anymore. "Retarded" becomes "special needs". "Handicapped" becomes "challenged". It's all a form of Orwellian Newspeak.
Some cultures react differently to direct speaking. In Japan, if someone wants to turn down your proposal, they will not say "no".
They will say they have to "study it further", they will make a hissing sound, they will say "probably", but not "no". This drives Westerners in Japan crazy sometimes.
So, someone posts on an internet forum about a dangerously foolish behavior.
Do you say "Oh, I feel for you, those bad mens on the intertubes have no morals"? Do you say "How brilliant you are, you got your camera back"?
Or do you say "That was pretty dumb. Sorry, I don't think you realize that you entered your name and password, and the money you viewed in your PayPal account might not even have been on the PayPal site. You better be careful, you might not be smart enough to do this."?
Or do you say "Oh, what a shame", when the OP comes back to post next week that his credit has been ruined, that money has been transferred from his bank account, and that he blames it on PayPal, the man in the moon, society, anyone but himself?
spyder2000
Dim Bulb
Sorry you were taken in by that.
One thing I began doing almost ten years ago was changing all my applicable settings to display the source of any link I receive in an email. That immediately alerts me as to the true domain I am being directed to.
It isn't foolproof but is a great help when deciphering all the junk that makes it to my inbox. If nothing else, your experience is a good heads up for all of us.
One thing I began doing almost ten years ago was changing all my applicable settings to display the source of any link I receive in an email. That immediately alerts me as to the true domain I am being directed to.
It isn't foolproof but is a great help when deciphering all the junk that makes it to my inbox. If nothing else, your experience is a good heads up for all of us.
kevin m
Veteran
No. You do not. Not if your true goal is passing along useful information, anyway.
greyhound_flyer
Member
For those who are interested in more specifics about this paypal scam, here's a google search of the scam/phish fake paypal website that is linked to from the emails:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="www.paypal.com/row"&btnG=Search
The scammers have done an excellent job making it look "official".
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q="www.paypal.com/row"&btnG=Search
The scammers have done an excellent job making it look "official".
bmattock
Veteran
I just call it 'being a jackass'.
It is a form of selfishness. By not conforming to even basic social norms, it demands that you be paid attention to, because your rudeness is so shocking it gets attention for its own sake.
It is not unlike the occasional emotional babies we get here and on other discussion forums who insist in typing in all caps, or intentionally use l33tsp33k to be annoying, or who refuse to use anything resembling proper spelling even though they do speak English as a first language.
You have an obvious intellect, and your information was correct. Your rudeness was posted, I believe, for the sake of being rude. And that is being a 'jackass'.
Al Patterson
Ferroequinologist
This almost happened to me. I got the money back, and de-linked my checking account. I will NEVER EVER link a checking account to Paypal again.
M. Valdemar
Well-known
Just opening an email without clicking on anything can initiate a script which will log all your keystrokes and send them to a third party.
Macs are fairly immune to this but Windows machines are easily compromised.
Keyloggers are the most dangerous. They can even be embedded or attached to a jpg which, once you open it, launches it.
Spybot is free to download and should be run weekly.
Don't forget about human engineering too.
Some people access their PayPal or bank accounts at internet cafes. This is guaranteed disaster. How about an open wireless connection, or using "free" hot spots? Everything you do is then 1000% public.
Macs are fairly immune to this but Windows machines are easily compromised.
Keyloggers are the most dangerous. They can even be embedded or attached to a jpg which, once you open it, launches it.
Spybot is free to download and should be run weekly.
Don't forget about human engineering too.
Some people access their PayPal or bank accounts at internet cafes. This is guaranteed disaster. How about an open wireless connection, or using "free" hot spots? Everything you do is then 1000% public.
chippy
foo was here
i havn't read their agreement closely so i dont know exactly but i am just about to go through thier proceedure for filing a item not received ..yet again before the 60 day time period runs out (in all likely hood it will arrive, they always have so far --items from Germany seem to take months to arrive, they often get shipped by land, god knows why! perhaps because their post office tell them it will take up to 12 days--it never does! more like 3-4 months in most cases!--heck sailing ships in the late 1800's only took 66 days!)
at any rate i just noticed this little excerpt, it appears in step 8 they ask you to cotact your credit company but encourage you to try pay pal first
8. Contact your credit card company.
Credit card companies typically provide some level of identity and purchase protection. Contact your credit card company to learn more.
Note: If you paid with your credit card through PayPal, we encourage you to try PayPal’s complaint filing process first.
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BJ Bignell
Je n'aurai plus peur
greyhound_flyer: You were right to cancel the credit card associated with the PayPal account. If you haven't yet, change your PayPal password. Also, if any of your other online accounts used the same password as PayPal, change them to something different from your new PayPal password. And for at least the next six months, be vigilant. Thank you for having shared this story; it's a good reminder for many of us that security is a process.
I just wanted to say that in my opinion the comments made by both M. Valdemar and bmattock were accurate, and obviously quite to-the-point...
And please, what's with the suggestions of having disorders? Is it really necessary? It's inappropriate to ask relative strangers to reveal personal details about their physical and mental health in a public forum, even if you have good reason to believe that your suspicions about their behaviour are founded.
If you think someone is being rude, just say "I think you are being rude". If someone is acting like an asshole, just say "I think you're acting like an asshole." If someone is acting like they have Asperger's or manic-depressive disorder or bad gas, try saying "I think you're being rude", or "I think the tone of your comments is inappropriate", or perhaps "I think you're acting like an asshole." Jesus, is this 4th grade or something?
I just wanted to say that in my opinion the comments made by both M. Valdemar and bmattock were accurate, and obviously quite to-the-point...
And please, what's with the suggestions of having disorders? Is it really necessary? It's inappropriate to ask relative strangers to reveal personal details about their physical and mental health in a public forum, even if you have good reason to believe that your suspicions about their behaviour are founded.
If you think someone is being rude, just say "I think you are being rude". If someone is acting like an asshole, just say "I think you're acting like an asshole." If someone is acting like they have Asperger's or manic-depressive disorder or bad gas, try saying "I think you're being rude", or "I think the tone of your comments is inappropriate", or perhaps "I think you're acting like an asshole." Jesus, is this 4th grade or something?
greyhound_flyer
Member
Did that yesterday.
Thankfully not, but great advice.
Yes, indeed.
I've downloaded and run 'Spybot - Search & Destroy 1.5.2' and it came back clean, and I have other software that is updated daily for scanning nefarious things.
I appreciate all the help and advice you folks have presented here and I hope others find it useful, too.
Ken Ford
Refuses to suffer fools
It was a serious question. If he has Asperger's I'm willing to make an accommodation for his constant rude, inappropriate postings; if he doesn't, I'll have to assume he's rude and inappropriate - or as you said, an "asshole".
There's a huge difference between being direct and being rude. Just because you're on the web and can't be punched for inappropriate remarks it doesn't mean that societal conventions do not apply.