jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Actually I find the M8 quite good at ISO 125o, tests like DxO put it on nearly the same level as the 5D, and I find 2500 pretty good as well...
The perceived advantage of DSLRs in this respect stems from the more advanced light metering systems. With proper exposure and a bit of postprocessing technique there is not much wrong with the M8.
Dont forget either, 1250=1600 and 2500=3200.
These is a high-contrast 2500 shot. Which noise??
There are three rules to minimize noise @ high ISO:
1. Expose for the shadows
2. Expose for the shadows
3. Expose for the shadows.
And let the lens handle the blown highlights.....
The perceived advantage of DSLRs in this respect stems from the more advanced light metering systems. With proper exposure and a bit of postprocessing technique there is not much wrong with the M8.
Dont forget either, 1250=1600 and 2500=3200.
These is a high-contrast 2500 shot. Which noise??
There are three rules to minimize noise @ high ISO:
1. Expose for the shadows
2. Expose for the shadows
3. Expose for the shadows.
And let the lens handle the blown highlights.....
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kevin m
Veteran
Even if that were true, the problem is the 5D is state of the art for 2005. They're now being sold off to buy 5D MkII's, D700's and the like, which are all quite useable at iso 6400 and above. And Leica responds with a quieter shutter and scratch-proof screen.
Conceding your point, for the sake of discussion, that the sensor is equal to those in top-level DSLR's, what does it matter if it's the sensor or the meter that hinders the camera?
For high iso comparison, here's a straight-from-the-camera, iso 3200 5D JPEG shot on "neutral" setting (no in-camera sharpening) with no post work except for resizing:
And here's a 100% corner crop with the blank white wall:
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Fred Burton
Well-known
You can argue successfully that the M8's form factor trumps everything else digitally if you prefer a rangefinder, but the M8's sensor is showing its age and it's hard to continue to argue that the image it produces is as good as modern FF dSLR's. Although I still see that argument made.
If the M8's resolution and noise characteristics meet your requirements, though, there is no need to move on.
If the M8's resolution and noise characteristics meet your requirements, though, there is no need to move on.
aniMal
Well-known
What I hope for is that the upgrade program sometime gets extended with a new sensor...
I would not need more than the 10mpix I have, but would pay to get one with really good low-light capability!
That is the single thing that in my opinion would make the M viable in years to come - as the idea of upgrading & extending the guarantee in itself is a great thing!
I would not need more than the 10mpix I have, but would pay to get one with really good low-light capability!
That is the single thing that in my opinion would make the M viable in years to come - as the idea of upgrading & extending the guarantee in itself is a great thing!
ferider
Veteran
The real question is if there will be an affordable Nikon medium format digital before the S2 starts shipping 
nbphoto
Member
I get the feeling that the M8.2 is a bug fix release of the M8. There was probably an M8.1 that got canned in favor of the M8.2.
Leica are obviously small etc, and probably now focused on the S system. If they dont get that right its going to cost them big time. I would expect maybe another bug fix M8.x as a cheap stop gap measure, maybe a few special editions too. Then once the S system is stable and getting sales, they may be able to focus on the M system again, and come up with the M9. In my opinion they should be talking to Sony or Nikon trying to license the use of the Nikon D3 FF sensor and image processing engine. That would satisfy the need for good high iso noise, and fairly high pixel count for a few years to come. Now we are in a digital world, they will have to keep their product offering rolling over every couple of years to stay in the game.
Leica are obviously small etc, and probably now focused on the S system. If they dont get that right its going to cost them big time. I would expect maybe another bug fix M8.x as a cheap stop gap measure, maybe a few special editions too. Then once the S system is stable and getting sales, they may be able to focus on the M system again, and come up with the M9. In my opinion they should be talking to Sony or Nikon trying to license the use of the Nikon D3 FF sensor and image processing engine. That would satisfy the need for good high iso noise, and fairly high pixel count for a few years to come. Now we are in a digital world, they will have to keep their product offering rolling over every couple of years to stay in the game.
kevin m
Veteran
That's certainly true, but it was more true back when the film we loaded was the common denominator.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
It is highly doubtful there ever was even a prototype m8.1. This is like the M4-2.And Nikon has no sensor that is suitable for a RF.
WoolenMammoth
Well-known
I rarely see this consideration brought up when I bother to read these discussions, but this is one angle you folks might stop to ponder. For however far behind the technology some people might want to think leica is one thing that is just not debatable is how far behind they are preceptually when it comes to MP count be that real or marketing hype or whatever.
If they intend for this camera to be put in the hand of professionals, which must be some kind of goal considering the price, there is one thing that really needs to be realized here. I KNOW this will be debated for how silly it is, but that is really besides the point as this is just a simple fact of the new world we live in.
Producer hires you for a job. They want X megapixel count. They may know nothing about photography, but they damn well know they NEED X megapixel count for their job. In this situation, one absolutely CAN NOT do that job on an M8 because it does not meet the minimum megapixel count production is asking for. The end. This is perhaps well more common than you think, inquire with commercial photographers and you might find out that many people out there are perfectly content with whatever the newest greatest is, but they keep upgrading as the new cameras come out just simply to stay current with what is on the market so that no other photographer in town has something "better" than them so they dont lose jobs. And today there is absolutely no questioning the idea that you are going to lose a job with a 10 megapixel camera to a guy that has a 20 megapixel camera. It doesnt matter what the pictures look like in so many cases, its just producers doing what they have been led to believe is right.
So by virtue of that fact alone, the m8 is a hobbyist dentist camera in a lot of ways. Its really a shame they cant keep up. I have $5k to spend on a camera, but I dont have $5k to spend on a personal camera. I can only justify spending that money if I can bill for that camera's use commercially. I can do that with a 20mp canon or nikon. I cant book that work with a 10mp leica. Is that ridiculous? Absolutely. Are those the parameters binding my purchase, positively. I would love nothing more than to have an M8 but the simple fact of the matter is that it would be very very difficult to use commerically given the options on the market today for producers. Its really a shame as its probably a fine camera, but it just doesnt matter. For me, and so many in similar positions, I have to wait until the used market drops the price into my "luxury" bracket, which is all an M8 can really be, just a fun camera. total shame. If people could use these bodies in the fashion world, it would be such an excellent angle for leica to exploit but its just not even an option when an editor is demanding 20mp images. crazy, huh?
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
The pro camera by Leica will be the S2 for the high megapixel market. There are many professionals using the M8, mainly in the wedding/reportage section, but for Leica that is not their core market. There are simply too few of them compared to the number of dedicated amateurs. There is a marketing advantage in high-profile pros using a given brand, but that is about it, from a sales point of view. So call it a lawyers, doctors dentist camera in a pejorative tone, still, that is where the money is in this market. And I know one or two doctors and lawyers that can give professional photographers a run for their money, image-wise, if so desired. Some of them are even active in this forum....
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Jager
Established
The raison d'etre of the Leica rangefinder concept, IMHO, has always been optical excellence, a viewfinder which allows one to see outside the picture frame, unobtrusiveness, and available light / low-light capability better than anything else. With the M8, Leica ceded part of its unobtrusiveness (much louder shutter), but overall image quality remained (and remains) very high.
The game changer, though, was the D3 and its transformative high-iso, low-light capability.
With the M8.2, Leica has addressed much of the shutter noise issue. But they'll likely need a FF solution to get back in the hunt regarding available light shooting.
My M8 remains my favorite camera. But when the light begins to drop it's no longer my tool of choice.
The game changer, though, was the D3 and its transformative high-iso, low-light capability.
With the M8.2, Leica has addressed much of the shutter noise issue. But they'll likely need a FF solution to get back in the hunt regarding available light shooting.
My M8 remains my favorite camera. But when the light begins to drop it's no longer my tool of choice.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
How many ways can the same thing be said?
1. The rebates are to clear out inventory;
2. The M8.2 will be a very low production item (perhaps 5000 units);
3. Leica will roll out the S2 and R10 before any hint of an M9;
4. There will be no M9 until 2010 (at the earliest) - my guess is Photokina 2011; and
5. IMHO, the M9 must be equipped with a FF digital sensor and at least 24 megapixels if it is going to be successful.
Now, hurry up and wait...
1. The rebates are to clear out inventory;
2. The M8.2 will be a very low production item (perhaps 5000 units);
3. Leica will roll out the S2 and R10 before any hint of an M9;
4. There will be no M9 until 2010 (at the earliest) - my guess is Photokina 2011; and
5. IMHO, the M9 must be equipped with a FF digital sensor and at least 24 megapixels if it is going to be successful.
Now, hurry up and wait...
sjw617
Panoramist
I thought that the science is not there to produce a FF rangefinger sensor and may never be there.
Steve
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
It's not. That's why we'll have to wait.
Why would you assume we'll be limited by today's technology three years from now?
Besides, IMHO, there is no reason to produce an M9 without a larger sensor.
Fred Burton
Well-known
So, how, exactly, is Leica going to pay the bills until 2011? The S2 is being introduced at probably the worst time in history to introduce such a product.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
The folks at Leica have been asking that question for more than 30 years.
... enter Andreas Kaufmann...
sjw617
Panoramist
I am not assuming today's technology will not advance (it certainly will). The science to solve the extreme light angels and make a workable FF RF sensor could happen. The cost of this R&D may kill any real possibility of seeing it. With 14,000 M8's made and surely fewer M8.2's, the cost of years of R&D has to be split among relatively few cameras. This could be too expensive for even Leica.
Bill Blackwell
Leica M Shooter
Remember, it was Leica who said a digital M was impossible - that is until Epson did it with the R-D1 - albeit with a 1.5:1 crop factor. 30 months later we had the M8 with a larger 1.33:1 crop factor.
In any case, if your assumption is correct, there will be no reason for Leica to produce an M9 (as I said prior). Rather, we will experience different incarnations of the M8 (M8.2, .3, etc.) until sales are such that the model cannot turn a profit - then the M camera will once again fall into extinction.
The S2 was, after all, introduced as Leica's new "flagship" camera.
TJV
Well-known
In my opinion full frame can wait. The most exciting thing to be announced of late is micro four thirds and the Olympus concept camera is a step in the right direction for me. In many respects, I would have thought Leica would have been in on Olympus' game and made a digital CM type camera around the MFT concept but with an inbuilt optical viewfinder. The M8's 1.33x sensor is a step up, especially considering new technological advances in sensor design could mean better low light performance with something that can be dropped in the current M8 chassis. I'd bet Leica are exploring this route, experimenting, all be it slowly, with putting new sensors in their current M8 body and maybe tweaking the fine points to iron out common bugs.
All is good, I reckon. It's a hard road finding the perfect anything after all.
All is good, I reckon. It's a hard road finding the perfect anything after all.
sjw617
Panoramist
Bill, I didn't realize the S2 was introduced as the flagship camera. As I looked around I see you are correct(of course). I guess that tells us more about a FF RF that anything else.
Steve
Steve