How Long Until The M9?

[stefan_dinu]

Leica M9 would be better. Then it have to be with film. 🙂 Or at least a new type of sensor that records an image as a whole. Not as a big mosaic of millions of points. With no gaps between different cells.

 

[Fred Burton]

Ummm, film doesn't record images as a whole. It records them on many little "points" of grain. Just blow a negative up big enough and you'll see all those little points way more than you want to. 🙂

 

[Richard Marks]

Leica's battle is also heavily impacted by death. People who might buy a high priced, manual focusing M rangefinder are dying faster than they are being born now. When you sell basically the same product for 50 years, those demographics eventually catch up with you.

Maybe the M9 should include a small suplemental oxygen cannula next to the viewfinder and a matching tripod with hooks for a leg bag. And some free legal advice on making a will.

Merry Christmas to you too

Richard

 

[northpole]

An interesting discussion!
My own view is that Leica are rapidly approaching the junction between a rock and a hard place.
Die-hard Leica folks may well continue to support the M8.x which is tweaked with a bit of this or that.
Step back a bit and look how many 10MP cameras there are for sale and at which price point they occupy in the market.
Now place yourself in that high income group referred to above, if indeed such a group exists in the current economic meltdown, and ask yourself honestly are you likely to even consider a camera with a 10MP sensor when Canon and Nikon and Sony are releasing cameras with sensors twice the 'power' 'resolution' - call it what you will but with mobile phones approaching 10MP people's perception is all.
Leica lenses are legendary but who would spend thousands on a kit when they think they are taking pictures on the equivalent of a moby or in old speak they are loading free give away films instead of the top quality Kodak or Fuji films.
Even if the sensor's physical size doesn't increase, Leica desperately need to procure a higher MP sensor to help prevent themselves falling a lethal distance behind the market, until such time as they crack the FF conundrum.

Peter

 

[parsec1]

What ever happened to that 'digital cassette' thing that you could just drop into any 35mm camera. Probably 5 years ago
I heard about it. It was certainly being developed in the US.
Todays technology could certainly allow it. What a dream..a 24 meg full frame MP.

 

[jaapv]

An interesting discussion!
My own view is that Leica are rapidly approaching the junction between a rock and a hard place.
Die-hard Leica folks may well continue to support the M8.x which is tweaked with a bit of this or that.
Step back a bit and look how many 10MP cameras there are for sale and at which price point they occupy in the market.
Now place yourself in that high income group referred to above, if indeed such a group exists in the current economic meltdown, and ask yourself honestly are you likely to even consider a camera with a 10MP sensor when Canon and Nikon and Sony are releasing cameras with sensors twice the 'power' 'resolution' - call it what you will but with mobile phones approaching 10MP people's perception is all.
Leica lenses are legendary but who would spend thousands on a kit when they think they are taking pictures on the equivalent of a moby or in old speak they are loading free give away films instead of the top quality Kodak or Fuji films.
Even if the sensor's physical size doesn't increase, Leica desperately need to procure a higher MP sensor to help prevent themselves falling a lethal distance behind the market, until such time as they crack the FF conundrum.

Peter

Well - maybe the customers look at the images instead of the market-speak?

 

[Fred Burton]

Actually they look at the shape of the camera or the method of focusing or even whether the dot is red or black when choosing a new Leica. I'm afraid that images are often far down the list. As for the great majority, the unwashed camera buying public, they are unable to see a difference in the images of grandma and the kids shot with their Canon Xs and the $6,000 more expensive M8.

I don't remember who posted it but I agree that it would likely not increase Leica's sale of new M's even if they released a 21mp FF sensor camera. The market for digital rangefinder cameras at even the existing new price levels is tiny and getting rapidly smaller.

 

[parsec1]

Well - maybe the customers look at the images instead of the market-speak?

'Market Speak' ? is that what the guys who sell ice to Eskimo's use ? or have we all been brainwashed into buying what we are told to. I think its a 50/50 split between us although many poor souls have 100% of both thats advertising and brainwashing . These are the guys you see parading thier 25 meg cameras with the18 - 500 mm lenses who take at least 1 picture a weak (Deliberate spelling 'error') but the 'jewellrey' looks good. The camera companies know this very well.Our stupidity keeps thier shareholders wealthy.
I repeat when I was using a couple of G2s with a 21mm and V/F 2-3 years ago on a job one of these goons(and without any conception of why I was using 21mm and W/A on a rangefinder) said and I quote..."Wow thats a couple of 'oldies' you got there".
'Market speakers' are part of every camera company now and paid very highly. You know.. the longer the lens the greater the ego..same applies to certain other parts of the human body so they say.

 

[JohnnyRangefinder]

What I think Leica needs...

What I think Leica needs...

Another opinion never hurts...

What Leica needs -- and it is something I have heard rumors about -- is a new "pro compact." Something akin to a full-frame digital CM. A holistic, ground-up design, with a sensor and lens designed in concert to provide exceptional image quality without the drawbacks of interchangeable lenses and resultant sensor issues(light fall off, etc...)

Spec it with a good fixed 40mm lens and a bright viewfinder and you have a catch-all camera that would compete with the performance of top of the line DSLRs. Without the complications of a rangefinder mechanism, they could price it at $3500 and they would sell a boatload of them. Add a 28mm option(again a specifically designed optic) and I know a number of photographers who would buy both.

I fear Sigma will be the only company producing such cameras for the foreseeable future, but if Leica would try such a product, I think they would be well rewarded.

The M8 is a wonderful camera, but I cannot help think that as I watch the prices go up and up that they are missing out on an opportunity to introduce a real game changer, again.

Just a thought,

S.G.

 

[Fred Burton]

I'm not sure there is much of a market for a $3,500 fixed lens rangefinder. A fixed lens still wouldn't resolve the technical issues of putting a FF sensor in that puppy.

 

[LADP]

I guess I'm a 5 percenter too. I bought an MP about 3 years ago, and I just bought an M8.2 a couple of weeks ago. I also bought another M3 not too long ago.

I do use the M8.2 in conjunction with my work, but I look forward to better high ISO performance in a future digital M body, and if there is a way to get a FF (35mm) sensor in it AND lose the IR cut filters, I could ask for nothing more.

It was a tough decision to go with the M8.2 vs. a Nikon D700. My investment in Leica glass swayed me. I was tempted to try to wait it out for an "M9."

 

[aniMal]

Hehe - I really like your attitude...

I also just use the M8, and it didn´t take me long to work around the quirks. It takes me far longer to work around the quirks of any new dSLR, and sometimes there IS no way around because the problem is often tangled and nested menus...

You are also right about the dilemma of full frame and optical quality. I use a CV 15mm a lot, and although it gives me colour shift and some vignetting, it is extremely sharp. It is just the last couple of centimeters in an A4 print that I can see the sharpness falling off, and if a FF comes around this problem will of course get worse...

I tend to think that I will keep my M8 until it is battered and used, and has given me loads of great pictures. Then I will buy another one when the prices drop on second hand.

The best thing with the M8 is the same as with the film Ms - it is simply designed to go out and take lots of pictures with full, manual control.

Which is of course challenging until you get the hang of it...

 

[kevin m]

There are many professionals using the M8, mainly in the wedding/reportage section...

I'd still like some support to back up this claim. I participate in a couple of wedding photography forums and I know of zero M8 users, whereas just a few years ago, I personally knew several M6/M7 users.

 

[johnastovall]

I'd still like some support to back up this claim. I participate in a couple of wedding photography forums and I know of zero M8 users, whereas just a few years ago, I personally knew several M6/M7 users.

Sean Reid uses an M8 for weddings.

 

[jaapv]

Jamie Roberts, from the beginning, Riccis, but he went back to film, not because the M8 was unsuitable, but because he wanted a film look in general, several more that I know of, but cannot get my aging mind to reproduce their names....

 

[kevin m]

The wedding photographers I know of who used to shoot weddings with Leica M6/M7's, but don't use the M8:

Jeff Ascough, George Weir, Paul Gero, Marc Williams, Peter Silvia, off the top of my head.

Jeff Ascough was offered sponsorship by Leica if he would use the M8.2 and he turned them down. He does own an M8 for personal use and says he loves the files it produces, but he won't use it for wedding work. He uses Canon 1D MkIII's and the new 5D MkII.

Leica has virtually zero penetration in the wedding photography market. In the film days they were an obscure but respected choice; now, they've all but disappeared.

 

[Mark Seymour]

Kevin
Count me on that list
I used M6 up until I moved over to Canon 5D
Now I'm using Canon 1D Mk3 but am talking to Nikon
I purchased an M8 about 18 months ago and many of the personal pictures on my blog were taken using the camera.
Personally I would love an M9. I'm also considering buying some Zeiss glass for my old 5D

www.markseymour.co.uk

http://markseymour.typepad.com/my_weblog/

 

[parsec1]

The wedding photographers I know of who used to shoot weddings with Leica M6/M7's, but don't use the M8:

Jeff Ascough, George Weir, Paul Gero, Marc Williams, Peter Silvia, off the top of my head.

Jeff Ascough was offered sponsorship by Leica if he would use the M8.2 and he turned them down. He does own an M8 for personal use and says he loves the files it produces, but he won't use it for wedding work. He uses Canon 1D MkIII's and the new 5D MkII.

Leica has virtually zero penetration in the wedding photography market. In the film days they were an obscure but respected choice; now, they've all but disappeared.

Re last paragraph . Absolutley right..a very sunny day a white wedding dress harsh shadows and a top flash sync of a 50th of a second...not much use for weddings or much else in those conditions.

Great for hand held low light shooting with Fuji 800 or 1600.
Try that on the M8.......hopeless!!!

 

[kevin m]

I used M6 up until I moved over to Canon 5D
Now I'm using Canon 1D Mk3 but am talking to Nikon
I purchased an M8 about 18 months ago and many of the personal pictures on my blog were taken using the camera.
Personally I would love an M9. I'm also considering buying some Zeiss glass for my old 5D

Wow, Mark, I like the wedding pics!

I used to use a pair of M6TTL's before I quit and I loved them. The only real limitations were the slow flash sync and lack of auto focus, and the second never bothered me. For the first, and for macro work, I pulled out the EOS-3. The M was and is an excellent, if narrowly focused, film camera; the M8, while a pleasure to use in some ways, is simply crippled for almost all professional use, IMO. Changing iso via menu is simply....what the hell were they thinking? :bang:😀

 

[jaapv]

The wedding photographers I know of who used to shoot weddings with Leica M6/M7's, but don't use the M8:

Jeff Ascough, George Weir, Paul Gero, Marc Williams, Peter Silvia, off the top of my head.

Jeff Ascough was offered sponsorship by Leica if he would use the M8.2 and he turned them down. He does own an M8 for personal use and says he loves the files it produces, but he won't use it for wedding work. He uses Canon 1D MkIII's and the new 5D MkII.

Leica has virtually zero penetration in the wedding photography market. In the film days they were an obscure but respected choice; now, they've all but disappeared.

Jeff Ascough doesn't use the M8 because of the green band issue.