Mark Norton
Well-known
You may well be right, there might be some other manufacturer planning to take the wind out of Leica's sails (and sales) by announcing a competitor. If so, they are keeping it a closely guarded secret.
I'd be surprised if it was Epson planning to come out with something new...
I'd be surprised if it was Epson planning to come out with something new...
John Camp
Well-known
I'd be shocked by another M-compatible digital rangefinder -- it'd be the best-kept camera development secret in history. I suppose it's possible, but why would you do it? If you wanted to take the wind out of Leica's sails, the time to do it would have been last winter, or this spring...now, people are already putting money down on the Leica,
JC
JC
Mark Norton
Well-known
Which kind of highlights how remarkable it was for Epson to get into this market, and I am pleased they did to force Leica out of the "can't be done" mind set.
R
RML
Guest
John Camp said:
It's indeed possible. Leica announced that a digital rf was "impossible" or at least unpractical. Moments later, Epson announced the R-D1 without any prior warning. If Leica was at that time already working on a digital M, they sure got shocked into action after that sudden release of the R-D1.
Paul T.
Veteran
I would love to presume Zeiss had a digital Ikon ready. But if we look at how far ahead they tend to announce their upcoming products, one could assume that it won't even reach the shops by 2007. TO me, this seems a hugely illogical approach.
The film Ikon can only ever be a niche product - after all, who really needs to replace the huge numbers of, say, film M6s that are already in use? Whereas if only 20% of film rangefinder users switch or augment their camera with a digital rangefinder, the market would be an order of magnitude larger than that for the film Ikon. I guess there's a question of factory capacity too - it seems Cosina won't have the ability to instal the electronics, given that they didn't do so on the Epson, so Zeiss will probably have to source new production facilities somewhere.
One would have hoped, too, that when Zeiss designed the basicIkon chassis they kept the implications of a digital version in mind. On the bright side, with the Digital Ikon, no-one will complain that the rewind is on the bottom.
The film Ikon can only ever be a niche product - after all, who really needs to replace the huge numbers of, say, film M6s that are already in use? Whereas if only 20% of film rangefinder users switch or augment their camera with a digital rangefinder, the market would be an order of magnitude larger than that for the film Ikon. I guess there's a question of factory capacity too - it seems Cosina won't have the ability to instal the electronics, given that they didn't do so on the Epson, so Zeiss will probably have to source new production facilities somewhere.
One would have hoped, too, that when Zeiss designed the basicIkon chassis they kept the implications of a digital version in mind. On the bright side, with the Digital Ikon, no-one will complain that the rewind is on the bottom.
jdos2
Well-known
Gotta be full frame. I spent my Leica gear on a 5D and I'm not sorry in the SLIGHTEST. Full frame. Leica? FULL FRAME. Gimme REAL WIDE ANGLE LENSES, please.
They do THAT, and I'll have a much harder time rationalizing staying with a big, loud SLR with mediocre glass.
They do THAT, and I'll have a much harder time rationalizing staying with a big, loud SLR with mediocre glass.
R
RML
Guest
jdos2 said:
How about using Leica R lenses on that 5D?
Didier
"Deed"
M8? Too expensive.
M8? Too expensive.
Certainly I would love to buy a M8, but the price is out of my reach. I have a family with three kids, who are needing new bicycles, new music instruments, new sport gear, new furniture, new whatever, all the time... thus my budget for photographic gear is limited. My M6 was bought used, as well as the M lenses. But at least I could now afford one of the demo R-D1 from Robert White. That's gonna be my camera for the next years, even if the M8 will be way better (or not, who knows).
Didier
M8? Too expensive.
Certainly I would love to buy a M8, but the price is out of my reach. I have a family with three kids, who are needing new bicycles, new music instruments, new sport gear, new furniture, new whatever, all the time... thus my budget for photographic gear is limited. My M6 was bought used, as well as the M lenses. But at least I could now afford one of the demo R-D1 from Robert White. That's gonna be my camera for the next years, even if the M8 will be way better (or not, who knows).
Didier
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
You need a Hassy for REAL full frame, with a Leaf back, or rarher a future 18x24 cm sensor. Full frame means just that: the size of the print. You are distinguishing between miniature format and miniaturest format, and would like the size of a 1890-ies cine film.Leica has that camera on the market since 1998. Just buy it.jdos2 said:
Err... That is exactly what they are doing by offering special wide-angle lenses with the M8.
nrb
Nuno Borges
You're 100% correct. To make the most of M-mount glass you gotta have a full-frame sensor like 5D.jdos2 said:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Do you like the 5D? I borrowed one for a few weeks to see if it was a decent upgrade over my 10D. It was - in a technical sense. There was absolutely nothing wrong with the results from a technical point of view. But I did find it had the same boring digital look my 10D has. Maybe it has something to do with the CMos sensor.
J. Borger
Well-known
I respect everybody who loves his 5d, 1Ds or whatever ...... but please these cameras are no benchmarks for the M8. There is only ONE benchmark for the M8 and that is called the R-D1(s). And perhaps the M7 (on some aspects). The rest is apples and oranges .... and the ful frame argument is yesterdaysnews and very boring to read over and over again!
How about a 5d vs. a Hassy with a digital back with a crop factor? does this setup also suck compared to the 5D?
How about a 5d vs. a Hassy with a digital back with a crop factor? does this setup also suck compared to the 5D?
sf
Veteran
mac_wt
Cameras are like bunnies
Hmmm, they're nice pics, but I'm not overly impressed. The first one has some seriously blown highlights (but it is a high contrast scene). The flare in the second one is not really spectacular and overall I don't think the colors really pop. They're certainly nothing you couldn't do with a (cheap) film camera. I hope the M8 will do better.
Wim
Wim
All this digital talk should be making you guys want to go to dslrx.com 
and pump some life into it.
and pump some life into it.Mark Norton
Well-known
Oh please, these images are just standard mass market P&S fodder. As Wim says, the highlights are blown, where's the sharpness? Where's the colour? Typical results from a camera churned out by the thousand every day for a target market who don't know any better and care less.
If you think this shows Leica have anything to learn from Casio, you've completely missed the point of Leica and especially of the M8.
I've no doubt that the M8 will give us the very best digital imaging, ranking alongside the R9DMR and D2X and even Canon's best might approach the M8 (when used with R-glass of course). Best of all, that quality will come in a package which is smaller, lighter, quieter, more discrete than anything which has gone before. We're in for a real treat.
If you think this shows Leica have anything to learn from Casio, you've completely missed the point of Leica and especially of the M8.
I've no doubt that the M8 will give us the very best digital imaging, ranking alongside the R9DMR and D2X and even Canon's best might approach the M8 (when used with R-glass of course). Best of all, that quality will come in a package which is smaller, lighter, quieter, more discrete than anything which has gone before. We're in for a real treat.
Last edited:
Dougg
Seasoned Member
Leica is in a bind: The M8 HAS to be outstandingly good, it must not be a flop; it MUST live up to the Leica name. Tough situation for any company to be in, but common among elite brands; they're on a treadmill where only the best is acceptable. The only comfort for them is that the price will be high and the customers expect that. I bet the camera will be spectacular.
I expect the M8 results will be compared to those of top dSLRs, but it's not reasonable to compare it as a product to those dSLRs because the dSLRs are not RFs and vice versa. Different market, different uses. I far far prefer an analog user interface, or a digital interface that mimics analog controls, and along with preferring an RF for everyday use, this severely limits my choices.
Will I get a Leica M8? I'm not ready to "go digital" for expressive photography, and must be forced to it, kicking and screaming along the way, when and if film and processing become impossibly troublesome/rare/expensive. But in the meantime that won't stop me from using a modest digital camera for business uses and snapping shots of other gear to show off here in RFF.
I expect the M8 results will be compared to those of top dSLRs, but it's not reasonable to compare it as a product to those dSLRs because the dSLRs are not RFs and vice versa. Different market, different uses. I far far prefer an analog user interface, or a digital interface that mimics analog controls, and along with preferring an RF for everyday use, this severely limits my choices.
Will I get a Leica M8? I'm not ready to "go digital" for expressive photography, and must be forced to it, kicking and screaming along the way, when and if film and processing become impossibly troublesome/rare/expensive. But in the meantime that won't stop me from using a modest digital camera for business uses and snapping shots of other gear to show off here in RFF.
Ben Z
Veteran
Dougg said:Leica is in a bind: The M8 HAS to be outstandingly good, it must not be a flop
Sadly the M8 does not have to be outstandingly good in order not to be a flop. Leica can guarantee themselves a chunk of sales just because it's the only genuine Leica M-mount digital. A lot of people would've bought it if they'd just re-badged the RD1 and charged another 30% for it, witness the Panasonic "Leicas". Just as there are some people who will gripe and be dissatisfied no matter what the specifications are, there are others who will buy it regardless of what as-yet-unknown quirks or foibles are uncovered once a working production model is actually reviewed. And if history is any guide, some people who in reality haven't even tried it will "authoritatively" shovel dirt on it on internet forums. And almost everyone who does own it will heap it with mounds of praise no matter how it objectively compares to any other camera. From what I've witnessed, the Canon-vs-Nikon debates are like little kittens playing, in comparison to the vicious bloodfest whenever Leica-vs-nonLeica is debated.
Mark Norton
Well-known
Ben, I think you've characterised what's going to happen when the camera is announced except I think there will be a three way battle - non-Leica, Leica film die-hards and Leica digital newbies.
I'm very much in the camp of buying the camera no matter what because I feel certain they will deliver and I no longer do film.
I hope Leica continues providing film cameras for as long as people want them. Problem is, there's a lot of them out there so that even if Leica never made another film camera, the secondhand market would supply the demand. As a business, that's a non-starter so that the move to digital was the only direction Leica could take.
I'm very much in the camp of buying the camera no matter what because I feel certain they will deliver and I no longer do film.
I hope Leica continues providing film cameras for as long as people want them. Problem is, there's a lot of them out there so that even if Leica never made another film camera, the secondhand market would supply the demand. As a business, that's a non-starter so that the move to digital was the only direction Leica could take.
richard_l
Well-known
So true.........Ben Z said: