ChrisN
Striving
doubs43 said:
I can relate to that. When I bought my Lynx 14 on ebay, the seller accidentally sent me a ratty old Voigtlander Vito! I supposed that all looked alike to his helpers! He was good about it and we eventually got it sorted out.
chendayuan
Established
>>and it is FILTHY
most of these EP camera have tobaco smell
>>>and the rangefinder DOES NOT line up, with any frame
this is a easy fix, and canon's RF very easy out of aligment, even lightly knock
>>>>it isnt even the camera in the picture, because this one is the "E-P" the one pictured was not.
do not know may the old lady is selling her husband's stuff?
>>>>the shutter does fire, but it sure doesnt fire accurately! it fires the same speed at every setting.
a sample CLA well bring back to life, you should not expect a full/smooth fuctional camera for that age except CLAed recently
>>>oh and to top it off. the lens was the 1.4 version, not the 1.2
actially f1.4 is btter than f1.2, it is smaller light and you do not gain a lot by use f1.2, they are roughtly sell for the same price
from your photos
1. the first lens of you VF may fall off osme time by knock or push, becuse it was glued on the body, use super glue glue it back on if fall off
most of these EP camera have tobaco smell
>>>and the rangefinder DOES NOT line up, with any frame
this is a easy fix, and canon's RF very easy out of aligment, even lightly knock
>>>>it isnt even the camera in the picture, because this one is the "E-P" the one pictured was not.
do not know may the old lady is selling her husband's stuff?
>>>>the shutter does fire, but it sure doesnt fire accurately! it fires the same speed at every setting.
a sample CLA well bring back to life, you should not expect a full/smooth fuctional camera for that age except CLAed recently
>>>oh and to top it off. the lens was the 1.4 version, not the 1.2
actially f1.4 is btter than f1.2, it is smaller light and you do not gain a lot by use f1.2, they are roughtly sell for the same price
from your photos
1. the first lens of you VF may fall off osme time by knock or push, becuse it was glued on the body, use super glue glue it back on if fall off
A number of very knowledgeable camera dealers open up Ebay accounts and move a lot of broken cameras in "As-Is, I don't know anything about cameras, but I see know reason why this one will not work fine" line. A lot of people move stolen property on Ebay, as Jorge found out when a local store got robbed and he found the stolen item on Ebay.
As Ebay continues to slide downhill, bid prices will drop and honest camera sellers will get less money on their auctions. Then they will quit selling on Ebay, and the camera show circuit will pick back up. The last show I went to was pretty good. Buy from dealers with established records.
As Ebay continues to slide downhill, bid prices will drop and honest camera sellers will get less money on their auctions. Then they will quit selling on Ebay, and the camera show circuit will pick back up. The last show I went to was pretty good. Buy from dealers with established records.
iggers
Established
Soap box?
Soap box?
I wasn't around for / know nothing about that. Besides, I was solely reacting to one point , that was critical of Hicks for making a reference to being stupid or to making a stupid mistake. As I recall, the criticism of Hicks was that he was not being nice in referring to stupid mistakes, even ones he has made in the past, given that the buyer was feeling bad enough already. That's not much of a soap box.
Soap box?
I wasn't around for / know nothing about that. Besides, I was solely reacting to one point , that was critical of Hicks for making a reference to being stupid or to making a stupid mistake. As I recall, the criticism of Hicks was that he was not being nice in referring to stupid mistakes, even ones he has made in the past, given that the buyer was feeling bad enough already. That's not much of a soap box.
parks5920 said:
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Buying on e-bay is not a big risk if you take some basic precautions.
1) Always look at the seller's feedback, and try to read the negative feedbacks if there are any, sometimes you can see that the negative feedback was not really justified, at other times instead they can be quite elightening.
2) Check if the sellere has previously sold successfully items of similar value to the one you are buying.
3) Never buy anything "as is" or "untested", unless it is for spares/repair.
4) Read the description carefully and ask question to the seller for the points that are unclear.
5) Know the product you are buying, for example if you are bidding on a Minolta Autocord, where the helicoidal focusing mechanism is known to be very delicate, ask if the focusing lever is smooth. Also on old cameras ask about the accuracy of the lower speeds.
6) On lenses always ask if the the lens is free from fungus/marks, sometime they "forget" to put these in the description.
7) For cosmetic description be prepared to accept one grade less than the one described, so an item described as mint- can turn out to be exc++, this can happen quite often and you should be prepared to accept it.
Fllowing these guidelines I bought hundred of items on e-bay, and for the only one I had problems with, it turned out the seller sent the wrong item, and he also refunded the return postage.
Of course you may decide to run a risk, for example a seller might have a low feedback because he is just starting, this often means that he attracts less buyers making his items cheaper, in these cases it is up to you to decide if you want to run the risk, I did it a couple of times and it all went fine.
Just my 2 cents.
1) Always look at the seller's feedback, and try to read the negative feedbacks if there are any, sometimes you can see that the negative feedback was not really justified, at other times instead they can be quite elightening.
2) Check if the sellere has previously sold successfully items of similar value to the one you are buying.
3) Never buy anything "as is" or "untested", unless it is for spares/repair.
4) Read the description carefully and ask question to the seller for the points that are unclear.
5) Know the product you are buying, for example if you are bidding on a Minolta Autocord, where the helicoidal focusing mechanism is known to be very delicate, ask if the focusing lever is smooth. Also on old cameras ask about the accuracy of the lower speeds.
6) On lenses always ask if the the lens is free from fungus/marks, sometime they "forget" to put these in the description.
7) For cosmetic description be prepared to accept one grade less than the one described, so an item described as mint- can turn out to be exc++, this can happen quite often and you should be prepared to accept it.
Fllowing these guidelines I bought hundred of items on e-bay, and for the only one I had problems with, it turned out the seller sent the wrong item, and he also refunded the return postage.
Of course you may decide to run a risk, for example a seller might have a low feedback because he is just starting, this often means that he attracts less buyers making his items cheaper, in these cases it is up to you to decide if you want to run the risk, I did it a couple of times and it all went fine.
Just my 2 cents.
To the above excellent advice, I would like to add one more:
Read the comments left as "positive Feedback". Most buyers do not want to leave negative, but will leave "lukewarm" positives. Look for "better than Described, shipped quickly, professionally packed" to occur in some of the positive comment blocks. If a customer takes the time to compliment the seller, it's a lot better than "Ok, item arrived". If someone got a good buy, they usually like the world to know about it. If it was less than advertised, but resembles the fine print, look for the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" in the comments.
Read the comments left as "positive Feedback". Most buyers do not want to leave negative, but will leave "lukewarm" positives. Look for "better than Described, shipped quickly, professionally packed" to occur in some of the positive comment blocks. If a customer takes the time to compliment the seller, it's a lot better than "Ok, item arrived". If someone got a good buy, they usually like the world to know about it. If it was less than advertised, but resembles the fine print, look for the "nudge, nudge, wink, wink" in the comments.
Paul T.
Veteran
There are good and bad deals on eBay. There is good and bad advice on here!
Firstly, do NOT waste your time with PayPal. There is NO Paypal guarantee on this auction! Try your credit card company first! By all means inform PayPal, but there is little prospect they can help you. They have strict rules, which are sometimes useful (for instance, if a seller with a PayPal guarantee sells an item, but doesn't ship it with online tracking, you can pretty much claim a refund without ANY hassle), but in this case you're on the wrong side of them.
I would say Roger's is bad advice, in that it's pretty useless! Sorry, Roger, but simply advising us about human nature isn't helpful - it would be more helpful to give useful information about checking sellers' feedback, making sure you ALWAYS buy items with PayPal funded by credit card, not from a PayPal balance, always keep your feedback in reserve (as this is a useful sanction), and keep a separate eBay identity for selling and buying.
I only got into rangefinders via ebay... and I now own a black M4, and 35/2 Summicron, which cost me a train set, some Elvis 78s, a bakelite radio and other bits and pieces I had in the attic. I was tutored by a friend who is now a Power Seller. I am very grateful I had him to give me useful advice, rather than clichés about human nature!
Yes, I've been ripped off on book contracts too... if only every other deal in life could be recorded by mutual feedback!
Firstly, do NOT waste your time with PayPal. There is NO Paypal guarantee on this auction! Try your credit card company first! By all means inform PayPal, but there is little prospect they can help you. They have strict rules, which are sometimes useful (for instance, if a seller with a PayPal guarantee sells an item, but doesn't ship it with online tracking, you can pretty much claim a refund without ANY hassle), but in this case you're on the wrong side of them.
I would say Roger's is bad advice, in that it's pretty useless! Sorry, Roger, but simply advising us about human nature isn't helpful - it would be more helpful to give useful information about checking sellers' feedback, making sure you ALWAYS buy items with PayPal funded by credit card, not from a PayPal balance, always keep your feedback in reserve (as this is a useful sanction), and keep a separate eBay identity for selling and buying.
I only got into rangefinders via ebay... and I now own a black M4, and 35/2 Summicron, which cost me a train set, some Elvis 78s, a bakelite radio and other bits and pieces I had in the attic. I was tutored by a friend who is now a Power Seller. I am very grateful I had him to give me useful advice, rather than clichés about human nature!
Yes, I've been ripped off on book contracts too... if only every other deal in life could be recorded by mutual feedback!
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Paul,
Well, obviously I didn't think it was bad advice, or I wouldn't have given it. Perhaps I could rephrase it more clearly:
1 Don't buy on e-bay (or any other pig in a poke)
2 If you insist on doing do, accept the risk of things like this happening.
I'd say that our unfortunate friend has just paid $360 for this advice BUT it's easy to think that it won't happen again or that it's the other guy's fault or some other rationalization.
It WILL happen again, not necessarily to him, but to countless others. And yes, it is the other guy's fault -- just as it is the the thief who is at fault if you leave your camera on the beach when you go for a swim and it's not there when you get back.
I freely accept that I was overly harsh in some of my phraseology, such as 'stop complaining', and I apologize unreservedly for this. But I make no apology for the advice, nor do I think it was bad or indeed condescending.
Cheers,
Roger
Well, obviously I didn't think it was bad advice, or I wouldn't have given it. Perhaps I could rephrase it more clearly:
1 Don't buy on e-bay (or any other pig in a poke)
2 If you insist on doing do, accept the risk of things like this happening.
I'd say that our unfortunate friend has just paid $360 for this advice BUT it's easy to think that it won't happen again or that it's the other guy's fault or some other rationalization.
It WILL happen again, not necessarily to him, but to countless others. And yes, it is the other guy's fault -- just as it is the the thief who is at fault if you leave your camera on the beach when you go for a swim and it's not there when you get back.
I freely accept that I was overly harsh in some of my phraseology, such as 'stop complaining', and I apologize unreservedly for this. But I make no apology for the advice, nor do I think it was bad or indeed condescending.
Cheers,
Roger
bmattock
Veteran
Roger Hicks said:
I would say buy on eBay according to your understanding and acceptance of the fact that you're participating in a risk/reward scheme and not a traditional sales venue.
Right. I have the same reaction you do when people discover to their horror that they did not do the equivalent of buying at a high street shop and things are not as they had pictured them in their minds.
If you look at the total price paid and what he got - the price is not THAT bad. Presuming the camera can be 'brought back' with a good CLA, even adding that cost into the deal you come out not too bad. Unfortunately, sometimes the bad taste it leaves ruins any potential enjoyment.
eBay will attract crooks like bugs to a picnic. Crooks are not absolved of blame just because the buyer knew, or should have known, that the risks were higher on eBay than at a high street shop.
That's the problem - if you point out to someone that risks are higher on eBay, others will accuse you of being 'for' the crooks.
I never understood that attitude. If I tell someone to stay out of a certain alley because they are likely to get mugged if they go there, that does NOT mean that I am in favor of muggers, or that if the person gets mugged I am glad that it happened, or even that I don't have sympathy for them once it happens.
Yet if you tell someone that eBay has a higher percentage of crooks than most retail venues, well you must be in favor of crooks. Blah.
I am always happy for people who choose not to buy on eBay. More for me. But for those who cannot accept the fact that things may not come out to their exact imagining, eBay is indeed not for them. The world is full of disappointment, but some folks in our increasingly litigious societies think that they are somehow to be indemnified against all disappointment in life.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
Paul T. said:
Well, you're completely wrong. Even if PayPal cannot help, contact them first. From there, move on to eBay, and from there, your credit card. The buyer can do as he wishes, of course, but ignoring what could be the simplest means of getting the deal reversed is silly.
Worst case scenario is PayPal says too bad, and the seller moves to the next level. No harm in filing a claim.
I realize people have differences of opinion, but your advice is just bad, sorry.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Paul T.
Veteran
Sorry Bill, I completely disagree. Each auction eligible for a PayPal guarantee will have it mentioned on the listing. A seller has to have 98% percent f/back for their auction to qualify. This one does not, therefore your prime route should be an alternative one. If you are not eligible for a PayPal guarantee you should try your credit card company first.
I have managed to get one hefty refund from PayPal because I understood their system. You are much more likely to get success from your credit card company because they can physically refund your money. eBay can't. PayPal won't, for the reasons I described; I would complain to them too, but it's important you try the credit card company first.
If you want to get advice from people who are even more experienced, go to the eBay user boards. I've seen them sort out a lot of problems. If they tell you that eBay or PayPal are the first port of call I shall be happy to stand corrected.
I have managed to get one hefty refund from PayPal because I understood their system. You are much more likely to get success from your credit card company because they can physically refund your money. eBay can't. PayPal won't, for the reasons I described; I would complain to them too, but it's important you try the credit card company first.
If you want to get advice from people who are even more experienced, go to the eBay user boards. I've seen them sort out a lot of problems. If they tell you that eBay or PayPal are the first port of call I shall be happy to stand corrected.
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
Brian Sweeney said:
Brian,
assuming that the camera is cleary NOT the offered one (type, lens, shape)
to me the whole discussion here sounds a bit strange because what the seller did is at least according to the German law straight fraud .
There is no s-nr needed if there is a photo at Ebay which says this is the camera you will buy. If the photo isn't the offered item it must be SAID explicitely !
So all what must be done (if the seller does not take that crap back) is to force Ebay to uncover the identity of the seller and then give the whole thing to a lawyer or to the public prosecuter.
Fraud is fraud and Ebay is NOT a outlaw zone, very simple . Or have I missed any other important facts about this attack ?
BTW in Germany I could call my money back if I had paid by bank transfer, that's why I always pay web trades this way.
I have the item then and the money and the crook must move first
Best ,
Bertram
S
Socke
Guest
BTW, what became out off Jorges desaster?
bmattock
Veteran
Paul T. said:
Disagree all you like. Your advice is bad.
Let's presume that your statements about what PayPal will and won't do are completely correct. If a seller initiates a refund request from PayPal and they tell the seller to take a hike, then what harm is done? None - they can still go straight to their credit card. They have not lost any of their rights.
Worst case scenario - they are no worse off then when the started. Best case scenario - your description turns out to be incorrect and PayPal gets the money back for the seller.
How is it wrong to go to PayPal first and ask them what they say about it? It cannot possibly be so - even if it 'wastes time' it is not a loss, no rights are forfeited.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
bmattock
Veteran
Bertram2 said:Brian,
assuming that the camera is cleary NOT the offered one (type, lens, shape)
to me the whole discussion here sounds a bit strange because what the seller did is at least according to the German law straight fraud .
There is no s-nr needed if there is a photo at Ebay which says this is the camera you will buy. If the photo isn't the offered item it must be SAID explicitely !
So all what must be done (if the seller does not take that crap back) is to force Ebay to uncover the identity of the seller and then give the whole thing to a lawyer or to the public prosecuter.
Fraud is fraud and Ebay is NOT a outlaw zone, very simple . Or have I missed any other important facts about this attack ?
BTW in Germany I could call my money back if I had paid by bank transfer, that's why I always pay web trades this way.
I have the item then and the money and the crook must move first
Best ,
Bertram
Bertram,
I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. But in my opinion, it would be hard to prove fraud. The seller clearly violated copyright laws and used the photograph from another auction as their own. However, they did not say "This is an actual photograph of the camera you will be getting." If they had, that would be out-and-out fraud.
Here, they call it 'reading the fine print.' If the seller does not say that it is a photo of the actual item, then the bidder/buyer has to ask, or they assume at their own risk.
One could sue in civil court and say that they were mislead and therefore deserve their money back - and they'd probably win, I'd say. It is clearly misleading now that we know it is a photo of a different camera - and a materially different one at that.
I think part of the problem with eBay is due to differences in laws and consumer protections from country to country. I have noted that some European countries go a good deal further towards protecting the consumer than the USA does.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
oftheherd
Veteran
kbg32 said:
I wish I believed that. I had a seller not send product and not answer emails. I went to ebay and never heard from them either. I had another who is now doing the same. It is negative feedback time I guess, but I hate to do that. I really don't understand as the seller continues to get good feedback. Just no product and only one answer to emails saying it was sent late but "was in the mail." That two weeks ago. Small transaction, but things I wanted and did pay for. One other time I went after a person myself on the internet. As I began to zero in on the person, calling relatives and finding other forums the person was on, the items arrived. Very, very late, but they did arrive. I think that person must have had some personal tragedy as there was a sudden cesation of sales and negative feedback began. Most transactions go well, but there are those that don't. As always, buyer beware.
Sorry for the problem here, but certainly the seller should be contacted. It could have been an honest mistake, or one the seller is willing to correct for good feedback.
bmattock
Veteran
oftheherd said:
Sorry to hear of your problems with eBay. I had a recent two packages go astray, but I think it was the postal system, I really do. One fellow had a delivery confirmation slip from the Post Office, so I believe they mailed the box to me. I just never got it.
As to not hearing anything back from eBay, that seems strange to me. I have filed several complaints with PayPal (not eBay yet), and although I won't describe their system as 'prompt' or 'efficient', it did take place. Are you sure you followed the procedure to file a complaint, or did you just send them an email and expect a response? I mean no disrespect, I'm just curious as to how your complaint got no response at all.
I agree that in general, the way to go is this:
1) Contact seller, describe problem, ask for refund.
2) Escalate to PayPal and/or eBay as appropriate.
3) Contact credit card company if paid by credit card.
4) If item cost is high enough and it is economically feasible, consider civil action.
If fraud or outright theft is involved, it is always appropriate to notify the police or investigative agency that has jurisdiction.
You've got 90 days from the transaction to leave negative feedback, I'd save that for last-ditch nuclear option. Especially since the guy can neg you right back. People tend to stop being cooperative once you've called them a crook in public, even if they are crooks.
I kind of doubt it was an 'honest' mistake, although it could have been a careless eBay seller who truly didn't give much of a rat's patoot for following the rules - like not copying photos from other auctions. But that doesn't mean he should not be contacted and asked for a refund first, before anything else is done.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
oftheherd
Veteran
bmattock said:
It has been a while so I don't remember except that as I recall, I clicked a box for sending complaints. Even if it was an email only, I would have expected a response, if nothing more than to tell me I was not doing a complaint in the proper fashion. That particular seller dropped off the map. I would have hoped it ebay couldn't contact them they would have told me. Fortunately, is was a pretty small transaction.
Mind you, I am not crying in my milk. I understand the hazzards of ebay very well, and am what I consider to be careful. I read and analyse feedback comments. I look at number of sales. I consider whatever I think will give me a feel for the likelyhood the seller is an honest seller. I decide before any bidding what will be the most I am willing to spend.
I have gotten some good bargains. I have lost a lot of bargains because I always have limit of what I feel I can afford to spend/loose. I don't go beyond that. When someone else gets an item for $.50 or $1.00 more I don't even worry. Everyone else, including me had reached their limit. Who knows if the winner had. I had reached mine and wasn't willing to find out.
One must always apply "buyer beware." But that doesn't make anyone feel better if there is a problem.
In my most recent case, I will go to ebay again, and based on your question, be certain I am filing a complaint in the proper fashion. But I won't be surprised if I don't hear from them. I have read too many times how ebay and paypal favor sellers, especially since paypal was purchased by ebay. No surprise really, there are more buyers than sellers, and no profits without sellers.
bmattock
Veteran
I dunno, I tend to think that PayPal favors buyers, but that's just my experience and opinion. I could be wrong.
I think you hit on something important here, though.
I feel that there are more 'careless' sellers than there are 'careful' sellers on eBay. What I mean by that is that many or even most of the sellers who handle vintage camera kit are not informed vintage camera specialists. They would not know an f-stop from a g-string.
That they describe an item as 'looks clean' or 'looks great' or 'seems to work well' is an indication that bidders should be aware of.
Here's an example. I've been wanting a Fujica ML-35 rangefinder for the longest time. I'm up to five of them now - none work. Not one. They appear to have a problem with their shutters becoming frozen over time, and it's not the standard type of problem you can fix with Ronsonol - that never works on this particular model, in my experience. OK, so eventually I will pick out the best of my non-funcitonal ones and have it CLA'd, but in the meantime, I keep hoping against hope that I'll eventually find a nice Fujica ML-35 that works.
There were two online recently. Both were described as 'clean' and one was described as 'working'. I emailed the seller of the 'working' one and asked him what he meant. He emailed back - he knew how to cock it and how to fire the trigger, and it made a click sound when he did so. Seems to be working, right?
Wrong. I asked him to hold it up to the light with the back open and fire the trigger. Right, the shutter was frozen shut. Sure, it 'clicked' but it did not open.
Frankly, I was not mad at the seller. He sells estate sale stuff, from Barbie collections to potted plants and used shoes. He heard a click - who would not think it worked?
You and I - we're afficianados. We appreciate the stuff and know how to appraise the true condition of most vintage cameras. Can we reasonably demand that sellers be expert in what they're selling on eBay?
I also know that some sellers take advantage of that. They feign ignorance and hope that they've disclaimed away their liability for failing to disclose a fault that they know perfectly well about. I always look at feedback and see what else they sell/sold. If they move a lot of cameras, then yes, they should know better and the fake "I don't know nothing" routine doesn't impress me.
As a bidder, you have to try to find out what kind of person you're dealing with, and what the depth of knowledge is. Language is tricky. "Works" may not mean what you think it does. You may think it is fairly straightforward - it either works or it doesn't, right? But even that term may mean different things to essentially honest people.
I can describe a car as 'working' because it will start up and the engine will stay running. That does not mean you can drive it cross-country without mishap. But if you buy it from me and drive it cross country and it fails to make the drive, can you claim it was not 'working'? Well, from your perspective, it didn't work very well.
So you have to bounce your expectations against the seller's words - try to devine where the differences are. Not always easy, or even possible in every case, but it can work to mitigate risk.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
I think you hit on something important here, though.
I feel that there are more 'careless' sellers than there are 'careful' sellers on eBay. What I mean by that is that many or even most of the sellers who handle vintage camera kit are not informed vintage camera specialists. They would not know an f-stop from a g-string.
That they describe an item as 'looks clean' or 'looks great' or 'seems to work well' is an indication that bidders should be aware of.
Here's an example. I've been wanting a Fujica ML-35 rangefinder for the longest time. I'm up to five of them now - none work. Not one. They appear to have a problem with their shutters becoming frozen over time, and it's not the standard type of problem you can fix with Ronsonol - that never works on this particular model, in my experience. OK, so eventually I will pick out the best of my non-funcitonal ones and have it CLA'd, but in the meantime, I keep hoping against hope that I'll eventually find a nice Fujica ML-35 that works.
There were two online recently. Both were described as 'clean' and one was described as 'working'. I emailed the seller of the 'working' one and asked him what he meant. He emailed back - he knew how to cock it and how to fire the trigger, and it made a click sound when he did so. Seems to be working, right?
Wrong. I asked him to hold it up to the light with the back open and fire the trigger. Right, the shutter was frozen shut. Sure, it 'clicked' but it did not open.
Frankly, I was not mad at the seller. He sells estate sale stuff, from Barbie collections to potted plants and used shoes. He heard a click - who would not think it worked?
You and I - we're afficianados. We appreciate the stuff and know how to appraise the true condition of most vintage cameras. Can we reasonably demand that sellers be expert in what they're selling on eBay?
I also know that some sellers take advantage of that. They feign ignorance and hope that they've disclaimed away their liability for failing to disclose a fault that they know perfectly well about. I always look at feedback and see what else they sell/sold. If they move a lot of cameras, then yes, they should know better and the fake "I don't know nothing" routine doesn't impress me.
As a bidder, you have to try to find out what kind of person you're dealing with, and what the depth of knowledge is. Language is tricky. "Works" may not mean what you think it does. You may think it is fairly straightforward - it either works or it doesn't, right? But even that term may mean different things to essentially honest people.
I can describe a car as 'working' because it will start up and the engine will stay running. That does not mean you can drive it cross-country without mishap. But if you buy it from me and drive it cross country and it fails to make the drive, can you claim it was not 'working'? Well, from your perspective, it didn't work very well.
So you have to bounce your expectations against the seller's words - try to devine where the differences are. Not always easy, or even possible in every case, but it can work to mitigate risk.
Best Regards,
Bill Mattocks
Bertram2
Gone elsewhere
bmattock said:
I see. That's different from here. Even in travel catalogues you have to say that this is a " room example" to exclude the client's assumption that ALL rooms look like that.
A different presentation is understood as " potentially misleading".
Regards,
Bertram