I think see a fork in the road - a rant

[bugmenot]

This is a very insightful thread Akiva ... please allow me to offer you this new avatar as a token of my appreciation.

I was about to post that, then scrolled down and saw that you beat me to it.

Either way, I always thought people preached about how photography is about the photographer and his or her vision, not about the gear and what is used to capture the photograph.

This thread runs counterpoint to that philosophy.

Personally, I know I shoot a lot more digital than I used to. Certainly the price of film, the variety of film available, and the accessibility of labs to develop the film at reasonable prices affects my decision to shoot film, but I still shoot it (especially medium format) almost as often as I used to before 2008, which was before I purchased a Canon 5DII (that I no longer have. Sold in spring of this year).

 

[Bingley]

My thoughts:

I'm enjoying developing my own black and white film too much to really care about the latest Leica digital M offerings.

Even if I did care, I can't afford those cameras. But I could afford an M2 and M4-2, and happily use them.

I think you're right that glass will continue to be a topic of discussion here on RFF, although I'm hard pressed to think of what hasn't been said already about vintage glass.

My two pixels...

 

[rxmd]

looks like photoshop avenue to me, between GIMP junction and corel main station.

Yeah, and now that you mention it it seems like Captain Obvious was the sculptor.

 

[majid]

Maybe the first generation digital Ms (M8 and 9) will actually become collectibles courtesy of a group who were happy to accept a sensor in place of a film cartridge but don't necessarily want all the other high tech mumbo jumbo that proliferates in todays digicams?

I see a generation of digital curmudgeons looming on the horizon!

I think the R-D1 would be preferable to the M8 or M9 for that niche.

 

[sanmich]

I don't see an immediate problem when more options are becoming available.
Rather when the "old" options are disappearing.
You can adapt that to digital vs film, the new CMOS possibilities vs pure RF focusing, the new APO summicron at 7k$ vs the old one, etc.

 

[Seraj]

Perhaps I am a little bit off base, but I thought of the M as a good thing. To me it allows someone who loves the form factor and discipline of the rangefinder to actually do certain things with their camera that weren't necessarily possible or at least easy. With a couple attachments you can now do some macro if you wanted, or even capture a short video to share. Instead of needing another camera to do that now you can use the one that at least feels like the ones you love with the glass you love.

To me the M said that in a couple years when I can afford it, I won't need the giant monstrosity of a camera my FX DSLR's are, don't get me wrong I love them, but if I can do most of the same stuff that I do in a Leica form factor ill pay the Leica tax.

I also fall squarely into the category of people who don't see it as an either or, I love my film pictures and I love my digital pictures. I use them as different ways of approaching the same art, with my film I tend to focus on portraits, explorations of human body, and street shooting where I really want to think about each and every shot. With my digital I focus on the fast paced world I love, experiments in light, long exposures, astrophotography, experiments in motion, etc. I absolutely prefer the physical darkroom to the digital one, but to me they are two sides to the same coin and I wouldn't fully pick one over the other.

 

[c.poulton]

Big question; will this forum split apart into two or can we all coexist even though our terminology will eventually be unknown to each other?

I can see 'us' exclusively film shooters having our own sub-forum within RFF at the very least...

(otherwise, there's always APUG...)

 

[BobYIL]

Brush and airbrush can coexist.. why "fork"?

 

[Maximilian]

At the same time, I see more digital cameras in the future coming with some sort of viewfinder and also dedicated aperture and shutter speed dials, instead of going through menus to adjust that, which I think is a very positive progress.

Also, I am becoming more and more impressed by the in-camera auto exposure and all the new focusing systems and of course the insanely good high ISO performances in some cameras.

As these cameras are becoming so much more user friendly at the same time as becoming smaller and lighter, I think the future of photography is in for a treat!

I for one am more interested in seeing great photographs, then I am knowing who is and who isn't the most technical photographer.

 

[Keith]

I can see 'us' exclusively film shooters having our own sub-forum within RFF at the very least...

(otherwise, there's always APUG...)

Or we can split away totally and become RFFFFF.

(RangeFinder Forum For Film Fans)

 

[Sean Moran]

When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
Yogi Berra

... and if you see a knife and a spoon, take them too. You never know when some cutlery will be useful.

 

[johannielscom]

voting declaration here

voting declaration here

Voting declaration here:

...old timey film guy...

Nothing bad about the M10 (I'm gonna call it that anyway) and the people that will no doubt be successful using it. The camera is a feat for sure and I'm sure some people can make it sing. Heck I'm sure even I could (which is a snide comment on my skills, not on the ease of use the camera provides!) but I've no interest in using it.

I'll simply continue to plan a full fridge, an empty wallet and a real-good scanning or re-shooting setup to get those negatives to digital files. I wanna use the old-timey gear, that's all there's to it.


Regarding the Glass department: will we have Leica R and other SLR lenses on the forum in the Digital Leica M section? By the time that comes around, calling it a rangefinderforum will be even more pointless than it nowadays sometimes is, considering the amount of M43, SLR, TLR and LF threads that we also happily fill (and which I like to read!)

 

[johannielscom]

Or we can split away totally and become RFFFFF.

(RangeFinder Forum For Film Fans)

RFF = Rangefinder Film Fans

 

[thegman]

Photography is one straight infinite road, you either keep moving or you stay behind, or you sit by the side, or you get stepped over, or you're put aside.

If you mean "keep moving" as in improving your photography, rather than cameras, then that might be right. If you mean improving the cameras, then I can't agree. It makes the assumption that companies are in the business of making better and better cameras, and they're not, they're in the business of selling cameras. They don't care if you buy it because it's cheaper, faster, higher resolution, got a red dot on it, looks like an older camera, or anything else. They just want you to buy it, and buy the next one next year.

Camera companies are not in the business of progressing the craft/art of photography, they're in the business of selling cameras. The new developments from Leica, Sony etc. are nothing to do with making better and better cameras for photographers any more than the iPad is to do with making better computers.

Sorry, slipped into a rant there.

 

[flip]

1] If that's your idea of a rant, then RFF has hope.

2] How one comes to learn his/her technique leaves a fingerprint on use of other tools. Leica might be taking a route that doesn't serve your desires, but like CD reissues of back catalogues, it may serve to pull some new people into an older way of thinking by way of curiosity.

 

[daveleo]

Photography is one straight infinite road, you either keep moving or you stay behind, or you sit by the side, or you get stepped over, or you're put aside.

:bang:

what ? . . . one straight road ? . . .

oh. . . . I get it . . . you were being sarcastic . . .

 

[Keith]

And while we're on the subject of forks .....

"Get some pork on your fork!"

 

[leicashot]

Your argument boils down to that it's now too easy to use a Leica if I understand you correctly.

By counter-argument, is there really value in making cameras deliberately difficult to use so that only a selected enlightened few will want to use them? Shouldn't cameras distinguish themselves by what they enable you to do, not by how their arcane user interfaces restrict potential buyers to the kind of people you like?

Not sure what kind of person I am, but I like the camera the way it is whereby certain skills and discipline is required. Cameras are being created to literally do everything for the photographer now, and Leica, up until now was the only company staying true to the traditional design values of the camera- that it's simply a lightbox....not a computer. A thinking photographer's camera. The ability to focus via rangefinder patch is a skill I had to learn through perseverance and is a skill that enabled a smaller niche part of the market to master. I took pride in that. Now where is the pride in operating such a camera when anyone can use live view?

 

[Keith]

Not sure what kind of person I am, but I like the camera the way it is whereby certain skills and discipline is required. Cameras are being created to literally do everything for the photographer now, and Leica, up until now was the only company staying true to the traditional design values of the camera- that it's simply a lightbox....not a computer. A thinking photographer's camera. The ability to focus via rangefinder patch is a skill I had to learn through perseverance and is a skill that enabled a smaller niche part of the market to master. I took pride in that. Now where is the pride in operating such a camera when anyone can use live view?

I have live view on my OM-1 and I can't say it detracts too much from the experience. It doesn't reduce my sense of pride much either.

 

[NeeZee]

Not sure what kind of person I am, but I like the camera the way it is whereby certain skills and discipline is required. Cameras are being created to literally do everything for the photographer now, and Leica, up until now was the only company staying true to the traditional design values of the camera- that it's simply a lightbox....not a computer. A thinking photographer's camera. The ability to focus via rangefinder patch is a skill I had to learn through perseverance and is a skill that enabled a smaller niche part of the market to master. I took pride in that. Now where is the pride in operating such a camera when anyone can use live view?

Pride in operating a RF camera? Well, I'm an RF and film guy and never owned a digicam but I think it's harder to scroll through 2000 menue screens to activate a silly face recognition feature than to use a rangefinder...