I Think The M8 Will Fly Like A Lead Balloon

[photogdave]

On batteries...

On batteries...

There has been lots of discussion on various M8 and other threads about "reliance on batteries" etc.
I agree with those who say that carrying around a battery or two is no big deal. It's not. I prefer totally mechanical cameras because they always seem to work the same way no matter the situation. With battery-powered cameras I've been in too many situations where the shutter has locked at just the wrong moment, or the camera suddenly can't read the aperature setting and chooses the wrong exposure. All the spare batteries in the world can't help you in these cases.
Considering such experiences, when I was going to trek up to Mt. Everest base camp a few years ago, I bought a Nikon FM2 to back up my F100. Of course the F100 performed flawlessly and I carried the extra weight for nothing!:bang:
Having said all that I think the M8 will be a strong seller and a real asset to Leica. People are nuts for digital cameras and don't seem too worried about how long until they become obsolete anymore. Any DSLR (and now DRangefinder) purchased today will not be obsolete in terms of the image quality it can potentially produce.
I prefer film and mechanical cameras for my own reasons, but if I came into some serious cash the M8 would surely find its way into my bag!😀

 

[Alm3000]

hi everybody, i am new to RFF. I have been following this thread about the m8. I don't understand why everyone is worried about this camera becoming obsolete. 5, 10, or 30 years from the day the m8 goes on sale, it might or might not be usable and the same goes for film. With in that time, one might not be able to buy film either, or labs might not exist, or companies may stop producing the chemistry to develope. Also, this is just the first generation of the m8. they will not stop producing bigger sensors, better image quality, faster processors. this could happen sooner then everyone thinks. So, i guess one has to ask themselves where owning the first ever Leica M Digital is worth the INSANE price tag.

THank for listening,

glad to be part of RFF

 

[rhogg]

The big deal for me is rangefinder focusing, being able to see outside the frame, the small unobtrusive package and ergonomics that I find pretty close to ideal. If that's what your looking for I don't see any viable digital alternative.

I think this says it all, but $5K for a 2-3 year life cycle is just :bang:


I'm interested to see if the legendary Leica glass makes a difference in the digital signal processed world, or if it is all about the sensor.

 

[Stu W]

Just a thought. The Germans aren't famous for their electronics. Are the cameras German made or are the made in Japan? Stu

 

[sf]

Why is a rangefinder persistently compared to an SLR? What is this need to persistently compare apples with kiwis?

Harley Davidson is not concerned about competition from Ford, is it?

Prada isn't quite concerned with Blue Navy.

Movie theatres aren't butting heads with NASCAR.

Because their business may have something in common it doesn't mean that their core audience is the same. Why should Snapple be concerned about what beer Miller comes up with next?

my point is that one of the shortcomings of digital is that your camera is quickly outdated by the rapid succession of upgrades. This is driven by the nature of the SLR/P&S consumer market. Being somewhat outside that chaos gives the M8 a shot at longevity.

My point is and was that they have very different audiences and very different marketing strategies.

 

[IGMeanwell]

I think this says it all, but $5K for a 2-3 year life cycle is just :bang:


I'm interested to see if the legendary Leica glass makes a difference in the digital signal processed world, or if it is all about the sensor.

I wouldn't sell digital cameras short

You can still buy Digital cameras from the infancy of the technology that work great.. of course there slow and image quality is not great.

Hell I still have my first Kodak DC-50 that my brother bought in 1997, its right around 1 megapixel... it eats batteries... slow shutter lag and unimpressive image quality

but it was one of the first consumer digital cameras and it still works just as it did when I first laid my hands on the marvel back in highschool.

Granted Shutter life is a question but the worry about shutter life has not once made me second guess whether or not to get the shot with my Nikon

Until These digital cameras such as the D100s the 10Ds get to be 10-20 years old ... we don't have a real sense of the durability of the technology. Mechanical shutters fail just as Electronic shutters do... whether its 4 years or 20... its a gamble as just about everything in photography tends to be.

 

[Nachkebia]

I think the M8 will sell well. The camera is a joy to behold and it continues the Leica tradition of fetishized commodities that actually work. I am not saying that it will fly off the selves but I believe it will generate profits for Leica that wouldn't be there if they kept selling only film bodies. In fact, we 'd better hope the camera does well, and that it hooks more people into the system, if we want Leica to be around offering all these marvelous lenses and cameras in the future. Being committed with a camera that costs the better part of 5k means that you are also buying lenses for it, and that could guarantee the financial success of the company. Besides it is imperative for Leica to have a digital body for it releases it from its dependence on the fortunes of film. (And as much as I love film I am wary for its fate in the not-so-distant future).

I will not be buying the M8 for various reasons but it is the only digital camera I 'd spent serious money for. I fully expect it to do very well - both sale and performancewise.

Could not agree more, I am actualy happy that people like you still exist 🙂

 

[rxmd]

Just a thought. The Germans aren't famous for their electronics. Are the cameras German made or are the made in Japan? Stu

There's "made in Germany" written on the back.

On the other hand, if you discard the M8's electronics on grounds of that, then all those guys with the Eyelike digital backs are in trouble (the company, Jenoptik, is a Zeiss spin off and is the same that does the M8's sensor design).

Philipp

 

[Paul700]

Durrr! Why this obsession with depreciation?

The depreciation on your digital camera is the money you would otherwise spend on film. I'm not a professional photog, but I still charge around £1k a year on film and processing against tax. If I bought an M8, I could handle $1800 a year depreciation. $3600 over two years.

It's just not an issue, or at least, not a significant one, unless you run a dozen rolls of film thru your camera per year.

And of course, the original lead balloon, or led zeppelin, happened to make a lot of $$$$

That is possibly the most sensible comment I have ever read on realative cost of digital cameras.
At risk of being thrown out of forum on third post, I run an D70 and Fuji F10 as well as Bessa. The digitals have totalled 17500 exposures in 18 months. Not all are keepers, but neither are my film exposures. The cost of pushing that lot through the dip and dunk lab in town scares me.

 

[VinceC]

>>It'd be nice if the camera was able to compete with the Canon 5Ds and Nikon D200s.<<

In the 1970s, '80s and '90s, Leica did not have a camera to compete directly with the Nikon F/F2/F3/F4 or the Canon F1/F1n/EOS. Leica is a small company that makes a niche specialized camera that some people (like the majority of visitors to thise foum) consider essential to a certain type of photography.

 

[Nachkebia]

>>It'd be nice if the camera was able to compete with the Canon 5Ds and Nikon D200s.<<

In the 1970s, '80s and '90s, Leica did not have a camera to compete directly with the Nikon F/F2/F3/F4 or the Canon F1/F1n/EOS. Leica is a small company that makes a niche specialized camera that some people (like the majority of visitors to thise foum) consider essential to a certain type of photography.

How about film you put in those 1970s, '80s and '90s leicas and Nikon F/F2/F3/F4 or the Canon F1/F1n/EOS, were those films same? so you are very wrong

 

[greggebhardt]

Jorge will probably move this thread, but the more I think of the M8, the more I think it is doomed to failure. A couple of years ago a company put out a prototype digital "film". It looked like a 35mm film cassette with a tongue sticking out of it. Supposedly you just popped it into your 35mm camera and used it as normal, with the exception that the "film" cartridge could be downloaded to your computer. The company went bust and I haven't heard anything more about it.
After looking at Canon and Nikon digital equipment, I don't think the professional photographer will buy the M8. The features and the focal lengths on the Canon system are amazing. That leaves the Leica purist. I think they would shoot digital, but it would have to be done on a film type camera. Something you would use like a regular M series camera. Wind, compose, focus, shoot. The only diff would be that you would soup your film on the computer. I love the M's because they will last forever. If the digital part was an add on I would buy it, but I'm not spending 5 g's on a disposable Leica. Stu

I think your thinking is flawed.😱

I think what Leica has done will insure it's survival for a long time. Long after people with closed minds are dead and gone. 😱

The M8 will sell faster than they can make it. 🙂

Watch the emulsion based Leicas get list on eBay! There will be plenty of emulsion Ms for sale!😉

 

[Steve Ashton]

Stu, I think you have got the wrong end of the stick as to why a pro would consider using a M series camera be it film or digital. For me these reasons are size of the machine and how it is perceived by your subject. Just try using a Canon 1DS with a L series wide on the streets and people will be drawn to the size of the thing. You just cant blend in in most situations with these big bodies.

M series cameras appear to small compacts and subjects dont react to them. Secondly the fact that your viewfinder can be used whilst the image is being taken enables you to monitor a scene and react as it develops.

These two facts alone make the M8 a fantastic pro tool. I will have two on order just as soon as I get the chance to do some test images and they will replace the Canons for wide angle work were possible. I bet we see a lot of photojournalist using these over the next few years. Yes they will go out of date but how many versions of the Canon 1D have we had and the Nikon D2X is in version 2 after less than 2 years. This is the world we live in.

Cheers

Steve

 

[VinceC]

>>How about film you put in those 1970s, '80s and '90s leicas and Nikon F/F2/F3/F4 or the Canon F1/F1n/EOS, were those films same? so you are very wrong<<

I don't quite get your point, Nachkebia.

Leica slightly improved its models over the years, adding framelines and tinkering with the finder and finally adding electronics. But the M-2 and M4 remain fully useable cameras. Film has generally improved over the years, but I would be okay if I were still shooting the films of the 1970s and 1980s. In fact, we've lost some great films that were available back then. I really miss Kodak Ektar, and I did most of my shooting 20 years ago with Kodachrome. I haven't used black-and-white classic films for quite some time, but my favorite was HP-5. I use newer color-chemistry black-and-white films just for their convenience. And Ilford's C-41 emulsion was introduced in the 1980s anyway.

The specs of the M8 allow you to shoot FILMs of 160 ISO up to some very high values that most of us don't use (I'm not sure why they don't go down to 25 or 50 ISO). The controls of the M8 allow you to shoot with different saturation and contrast levels, different colour balances as well as in black and white. The camera, in effect, contains many types of film for many shooting styles. That's a huge advantage of digital.

Will there be better sensors in 10 years? Of course there will. But if the M8 is well-built and rugged, I expect it will still have considerable trade-in value for those who want to upgrade, because it will still be a very capable and useable camera 10 years from now and even 20 years from now. That's not different from the current line-up of film Leicas. Many people buy M3s, M2s, M4s and M6s because they frankly can't justify buying a brand-new Leica.

 

[Socke]

The specs of the M8 allow you to shoot FILMs of 160 ISO up to some very high values that most of us do't use (I'm not sure why they don't go down to 25 or 50 ISO).

The 1/8000th shutter will take care of this 🙂

 

[Nachkebia]

There will be M9 demand within 1-2 years, demand will be so big it might run out of control 🙂 if you really want to know why I will explain 🙂

 

[ywenz]

The reason Leica Ms have been reliable in the field is because the entire camera is mechanical. If you over-engineer a mechanical device, it'll undoubtly be reliable.

The M8 is an electronic device, housed in a non-weather sealed body - it is a tough body however. Regardless the body material, since it's not weather sealed, dust and moisture can get inside the camera and those elements are deadly to electronics... The M8 will NEVER been as reliable as the previous M cameras..

 

[jshelly]

The M8 severely conflicts with itself. You have Leica that's famous for it's amazing build quality and sensor technology that’s built in, that will be definitely be overshadowed by new sensor technology in the near future.

I don’t think there is any doubt that depreciation will have a much larger effect on the M then it’s ever had. With film, it didn’t matter – all you had to do was load any new film that came along.

If Leica constructed a camera where the sensor could be replaced by the end user then I wouldn't think twice about paying 5k for it.

 

[VinceC]

I'm near the front of the line to buy one of those depreciated Leicas in two or three years.

 

[jshelly]

I'm near the front of the line to buy one of those depreciated Leicas in two or three years.

I'll be right behind you in two to three years.