I Think The M8 Will Fly Like A Lead Balloon

[Stu W]

I wonder what market Leica is targeting? Reporters, photojournalists, first time camera buyers, or people who already own Leica M's? I belong to several forums and the LHSA and I haven't been solicited by Leica yet. Stu

 

[MikeL]

With all this talk about upgrading sensors and depreciation I'm wondering how good a sensor we need for nice 8 X 10s? Seems to me the current one should be good enough for quite a while.

 

[Nachkebia]

If sensor of M8 is upgrateble there is not reason for M9, I will just start saving money 🙂

 

[phototone]

With all this talk about upgrading sensors and depreciation I'm wondering how good a sensor we need for nice 8 X 10s? Seems to me the current one should be good enough for quite a while.

You are correct, the 10mp sensor is more than enough for the type of photography normally done with Rangefinder type cameras. The imager should not be the obsolete-inducing factor in the purchase of an M8. As long as Leica would continue to support the M8 as far as repairs go, then there is no reason the M8 shouldn't have a nice long service life. I am more interested in the "quality" of the files, rather than the pixel-count, now that we have 10mp in this form factor.
There are lots of classic photos taken with rangefinder type cameras that start to break down in sizes larger than 5x7, if you consider grain. Just how big does one need to print? In the past, one would shoot larger film sizes for super-big prints.

 

[VinceC]

Once you reach resolution comparable to modern film, you're also bumping up against the practical resolution of the lenses themselves. Pixel counts can climb forever, but physics dictate that visible light waves must be of a certain frequency and wave-length.

I know electronics can be a weak point. But I've got a 35- or 40-year-old Nikon Photomic FTn match-needle meter prism that still works just fine. Some of my kids' $10 toys use astonishingly sophisticated electronics, so the manufacture of replacement electronics is only going to get cheaper, making it affordable to keep the cameras in service.

I've owned my Canon Powershot G1 digital for just a few weeks shy of six years. It works that same as it did six years ago after having taken many thousands of images. It's still a very capable snapshot camera. ... wish the 3 Meg resolution was a bit better, and I don't like the outrageous depth of field of the tiny sensor. But in certain ways, it's a better camera than it was six years ago. My photo printer has been upgraded. I've upgraded my image editing software and learned to use it properly. The storage chips that fit the camera used to terribly expensive and are now so cheap you can shoot all day. I've replaced the rechargeable battery twice. It has completely paid for itself and is our family's throwaway camera that I'm not afraid to loan to children or take on canoe trips. There are certain advantages to owning a fully depreciated camera.

 

[jshelly]

I can't imagine a bag without one banging around next to the Nikons and Canons and Olympussies.

Now I'm offended! - I love my OM-1

😀 😀 😀

 

[rvaubel]

Once you reach resolution comparable to modern film, you're also bumping up against the practical resolution of the lenses themselves......


I've owned my Canon Powershot G1 digital for just a few weeks shy of six years. It works that same as it did six years ago after having taken many thousands of images. It's still a very capable snapshot camera. ... I'm not afraid to loan to children or take on canoe trips. There are certain advantages to owned a fully depreciated camera.

That is it in a nutshell. Just like I expect my RD1 to play second fiddle to my M8, in 5 or 10 years the M8 will be supplanted by a later model. That doesn't mean the M8 won't still be an excellent camera. And it cetainly does not mean it will be worthless.

BTW, the theoritical constraints, and practical considerations make it unlikely that a Leica rangefinder sized camera will ever a sensor with more than about 15MP resolution. Higher ISO sensitivity and better dynamic range are much more important consideration in the evolution of the digital camera. Anything above 10 MP or so, surpasses anything we ever got out of 35mm film. 15MP would be nice so one could do heavy cropping but beyond that we are getting into the medium format territory. How many 18" x 24" prints have you done lately??

Rex

 

[Ben Z]

the more I think of the M8, the more I think it is doomed to failure.

From the scuttlebutt I've read there are a ton of people on waiting lists already and Leica will have a job trying to satisfy the demand. Is that not true, and if so, what exactly is your definition of failure?

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

E. Bill Gates thought the Internet was just a fad, any enterprise engaging it would be doomed to failure. Selling plagiarized operating systems on machines that were once thought of the niche of hobbyists; nothing serious...

 

[VinceC]

Speaking of rapid evolution of technology. Back in the glory days of rangefinders in the 1950s, it seemed like Canon was introducing a new model camera every four to six months. The LTM cameras of 1951 were vastly inferior to the LTM cameras of 1955 were vastly inferior to the LTM cameras of 1960. But the forum is filled with people who keep using them and enjoying them all.

 

[rhogg]

Once you reach resolution comparable to modern film, you're also bumping up against the practical resolution of the lenses themselves. ...

...I've owned my Canon Powershot G1 digital for just a few weeks shy of six years. It works that same as it did six years ago ....


As does my Nikon 4500 - but nowwhere near as well as my film cameras. My point about the sensor was not a question of resolution but the more subtle characteristics of lenses.

Is the sensor and subsequent processing going to maintain the colour and gradiations of the top quality lens? This isn't meant to be argumentative, simply a question. 😕

 

[VinceC]

rhogg,

I don't know. ... testers seem to really like the Leica digital images.

There's also a lot of user-variable input for subsequent processing. I hear Leica users talk about their lens quality all the time. But they never discuss the post-processing aspects of photo-enlargers or the traits of various color film processors. These are critical to the final image. I used to do extensive black-and-white darkroom work, and there were noticeable differences from one enlarging lens to another, or one light source from another, just as there are now noticeable differences from one film scanner to another. So the camera and lens remain just one aspect in the creation of the final image.

 

[NIKON KIU]

I don't know. ... testers seem to really like the Leica digital images.

Why would any tester say anything bad? They got a free camera to test, it would be mighty impolite to say anything negative! Seems like Leica hand picked the testers(long time Leica users).
Now, the people that cough-up $5000 to buy the Camera may have a different opinion...time will tell.
Kiu

 

[jrgeoffrion]

I don't think the professional photographer will buy the M8.

I'm a professional and I'm getting one. 😉 'nuf said. 😀

JR

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Why would any tester say anything bad? They got a free camera to test, it would be mighty impolite to say anything negative! Seems like Leica hand picked the testers(long time Leica users).
Now, the people that cough-up $5000 to buy the Camera may have a different opinion...time will tell.
Kiu

True. Canon, Nikon and the rest should also quit hand-picking their testers and stop giving test cameras to camera testers too. Give them to the mom at the soccer game, the guy at the BBQ party. Do a real double-blind test and not pick people who they already know how to handle a camera and all its features, expected and unexpected.

Hand-picking their market's testers. What next, let an independent movie critic get a preview of an independently-produced movie? Let painters test paint brushes? The folly.

 

[VinceC]

Leica users treat their lenses and cameras like a religion. And Leica disbelievers are as fired up as aethists debunking someone else's God. So there's no real way to objectively approach these cameras. The real question is, Do they take technically excellent photographs using a quality rangefinder camera interface? This whole "CCD will be obsolete in three years" argument is just strange. The M-camera is a 52-year-old design. It's a classic design, as obsolete as Frank Sinatra or Marilyn Monroe. Some ideas of the 1950s -- McCarthysism, big car fins -- went out of fashion. Others, like the U.S. Interstate highway system, and the Leica M, are enduring classics.

 

[jlw]

Why would any tester say anything bad? They got a free camera to test, it would be mighty impolite to say anything negative!

Naturally, if I'm a camera-company PR guy (and they're the ones who determine product placements) I'm going to try to pick people who will generate favorable publicity for my product.

But while I'm sure they pick people who have forgiving attitudes, you also have to keep in mind that testers consider their time valuable, and if a product is absolutely crap, wasting their time trying it out is going to cost them money. That does give them some counter-incentive to dish out the truth on a product that's absolutely useless.

It's kind of like the "contingency money" that auto-products manufacturers pay to racing teams if their product was used on a car that wins a race. The race team wants the money and will use the stuff -- as long as it doesn't actually decrease their chances of winning. If it did make it less likely they'd win, there'd be no point in using the product (since you only get contingency money if you win) and they'd rather use a "winning" product even if it pays NO contingency money.

 

[HAnkg]

mechanical v electronic

mechanical v electronic

How is it that the pros that work in the most inhospitable environments like desert war zones and natural disasters in remote areas of the world are OK with being totally dependent on digital cameras, lap top computers, satellite phones. Yet amateur photographers are freaked out that they might have to depend on a battery while photographing the family picnic (which they got to in a vehicle which is totally dependent on computers and a battery).

I can understand if some prefer the process of analog -Ralph Gibson his very eloquent on is connection to the process- but I think the reliability/my grandson won't be able to use it arguments are over the top.

In one commercial shoot I would typically plow through 20 rolls of film. Scanning was a nightmare and film processing costs significant. I'm loving digital and it's great that Leica is providing a unique alternative.

 

[Gabriel M.A.]

Leica users treat their lenses and cameras like a religion.

I had no idea. I must be a blasphemer.

 

[VinceC]

>>I had no idea.<<

I've never seen another camera system that inspires so much primal emotion among people.