I'm getting straight messages about film been alive.

It's not a fad. Just look at those two photos on the link you posted xayraa33. Even with the rezzing down, they show why we still shoot film, and why there is a strong market for it. Those photos could only have been made with a film camera. The image quality of film is superb, and you can load your cameras with all sorts of different films and not be stuck with one sensor in your digital cameras.

It ALWAYS comes down to this in these silly film vs digital discussions. Film's image quality can only be realized by shooting a film camera. I mean, isn't it obvious that film is still the best thing out there? It's tempting to say that someone would have to be blind not to see that, so I won't, but for the life of me I don't understand how someone can be engaged in photography and not see the huge quality lead that film still has over digital. They're two totally different mediums with two completely different looks, and the difference is hardly subtle. I have a smart phone that I love to take photos with, and I appreciate how handy it is and how nice the photos from it are, but I also understand its limitations, and those same limitations exist even if you shoot the latest and greatest Leica digital camera. You still end up with a digital file, and it won't look as good as film.
 
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I think the long term future of (non-instant) film is rocky at the moment.

Fujifilm appear to be slowly pulling out of the market, which would leave Kodak as the sole manufacturer of colour film. Kodak themselves aren't the most stable of companies having previously come out of bankruptcy and have a $420m loan that's due for payment in 2019.

Secondly the number of usable cameras is decreasing year on year. Either by collectors hoarding, or by cameras failing over time.
A lot of the people who repaired film cameras are now starting to retire, or passing away without the knowledge being passed on.

I think for film to have any kind of future it needs at least two stable companies manufacturing colour film. Sure Ilford (and Foma) look stable for B&W, but can they survive in a further shrunken market after the potential loss of colour film ?
Secondly, it needs someone making new film cameras.
 
Ste_S said:
I think the long term future of (non-instant) film is rocky at the moment.

Fujifilm appear to be slowly pulling out of the market, which would leave Kodak as the sole manufacturer of colour film. Kodak themselves aren't the most stable of companies having previously come out of bankruptcy and have a $420m loan that's due for payment in 2019.

I think for film to have any kind of future it needs at least two stable companies manufacturing colour film. Sure Ilford (and Foma) look stable for B&W, but can they survive in a further shrunken market after the potential loss of colour film ?
Secondly, it needs someone making new film cameras.
Click to expand...

One word: Instax. It's the panacea.
 
Steve M. said:
It's not a fad. Just look at those two photos on the link you posted xayraa33. Even with the rezzing down, they show why we still shoot film, and why there is a strong market for it. Those photos could only have been made with a film camera. The image quality of film is superb, and you can load your cameras with all sorts of different films and not be stuck with one sensor in your digital cameras.

It ALWAYS comes down to this in these silly film vs digital discussions. Film's image quality can only be realized by shooting a film camera. I mean, isn't it obvious that film is still the best thing out there? It's tempting to say that someone would have to be blind not to see that, so I won't, but for the life of me I don't understand how someone can be engaged in photography and not see the huge quality lead that film still has over digital. They're two totally different mediums with two completely different looks, and the difference is hardly subtle. I have a smart phone that I love to take photos with, and I appreciate how handy it is and how nice the photos from it are, but I also understand it's limitations, and those same limitations exist even if you shoot the latest and greatest Leica digital camera. You still end up with a digital file, and it won't look as good as film.
Click to expand...

Oh I understand what you are saying, I am a film shooter myself and I come from that generation that was pre-digital but the fact remains that film now is a niche market that will flow and ebb to various degrees with the passing of time and fads that come and go.

Once my generation passes away and the hipster movement is long in the tooth and has moved on to other things, then film photography will go the way of daguerreotype process.
 
xayraa33 said:
Once my generation passes away and the hipster movement is long in the tooth and has moved on to other things, then film photography will go the way of daguerreotype process.
Click to expand...

No, because those young film photographers don't belong to the "hipster movement". That is a myth that all young film shooters are "hipsters".
These young "digital natives" who are discovering film are just normal young people.
People are different. They are individuals.
Therefore there will always be people who will like what film has to offer. Because film is very different to digital imaging.
 
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Ste_S said:
I think the long term future of (non-instant) film is rocky at the moment.
Click to expand...

It is at least more stable than some years ago. Because some market segments are already increasing. And in others the decrease rates have significantly come down towards a coming stabilisation.

Ste_S said:
Fujifilm appear to be slowly pulling out of the market, which would leave Kodak as the sole manufacturer of colour film.
Click to expand...

Just speculation. It is also possible that Fujifilm is simply concentrating on the films with sufficient demand, so that they can be kept in production.

Ste_S said:
Secondly the number of usable cameras is decreasing year on year. Either by collectors hoarding, or by cameras failing over time.
A lot of the people who repaired film cameras are now starting to retire, or passing away without the knowledge being passed on.
Click to expand...

The number of working used film cameras on the market is huge, much more than 100 million. Just look at the CIPA numbers (published on their website) how much only Japanese film cameras have been sold since 1977: More than 600 millions!!

That alone will last decades to come.
And there are lots of younger repair experts. And even young and very enthusiastic repair people who are getting now into this attractive market. Just three examples:
https://camerarescue.org/
http://www.fstopcameras.com/
http://clickundsurr.de/

Ste_S said:
I think for film to have any kind of future it needs at least two stable companies manufacturing colour film. Sure Ilford (and Foma) look stable for B&W, but can they survive in a further shrunken market after the potential loss of colour film ?
Click to expand...

Color film will not be lost. There is much more color film sold than BW film. Maybe we will see some changes in production structure or ownwership (Kodak). But certainly not a production stop. Not now as there are positive demand signals from the market. Besides Kodak and Fujifilm there will be Film Ferrania offering color film in the future.
And we will see more BW films also from Adox.

Ste_S said:
Secondly, it needs someone making new film cameras.
Click to expand...

Fujifilm is already producing more then 7 million film cameras (Instax) p.a.
So if there is demand, a company will produce and satisfy the demand. Simple as that.

Intrepid is curently producing more than 1,000 LF cameras p.a.. Because there is demand.

As the production of digital cameras is still collapsing, reaching a new all-time low this year, camera manufacturers will start producing film cameras again as soon as the demand is sufficient enough. Currently the prices of most used cameras are still too low, because there is such a huge over-supply of them. The competition from the used market is currently too big in most segments.

But in 5-7 years, we will probably see more new film cameras again. That would not surprise me at all 🙂.
 
capitalK said:
My guess is demand for processing has doubled at West over the last two years mostly because the other shops are closing down their processors or shuttering their stores entirely. Not sure its sustainable.
Click to expand...

Which shops have closed in the last two years?
Please list them.
Downtown Camera and Toronto Image Works have continued their business.
And Annex Photo with their new shop started about two years ago.

That labs and shops have closed has happened in most cases many years ago.
If I look at it on an international level, in the last two years more new labs have started business than old ones have closed. And lots of established labs have strengthened and invested in their business.

Cheers, Jan
 
xayraa33 said:
...

Once my generation passes away and the hipster movement is long in the tooth and has moved on to other things, then film photography will go the way of daguerreotype process.
Click to expand...

Funny how old people always claim it's the hipster movement that is driving it (and by choosing that word are using it in a derogatory way).
The majority of people who I see using film cameras are teens and 'kids' in their early twenties. They are the future. The 'hipsters' have already passed on the film torch to them even though they are still involved.

Bless the hipsters, every one of them, for they have sparked the revival that has now taken off!

p.s. and bless Lomography too, for they were the ones who saved film, showed it could be fun, showed it didn't have to be serious, and showed it could be cheap.

No-one, no-one has done more to promote film use than Lomography. Not Leica, not Nikon, not anyone. Anyone else ever promote it like this?:

https://www.lomography.com/magazine/
 
Skiff said:
No, because those young film photographers don't belong to the "hipster movement". That is a myth that all young film shooters are "hipsters".
These young "digital natives" who are discovering film are just normal young people.
People are different. They are individuals.
Therefore there will always be people who will like what film has to offer. Because film is very different to digital imaging.
Click to expand...

Hipsters or old Luddite codgers like me or not, it will not change the fact that film still photography is now a quaint process of the past that has been supplanted in everyday general photography done by the masses and by most professionals to make a living by.

Yes, we still have some photographers world-wide that still practice very old photographic processes here and there, from the daguerreotype process to the calotype process to wet plate.

But if we gathered daguerreotypists and wet plate photographers these days all together world-wide, we would be hard pressed to half fill the Royal Albert Hall in London England. In time, film 20th century style photographers will also be rare birds and just as odd and exotic and rare as the daguerreotypists and wet plate photographers in today's timeline.
 
It's too bad that they gave west camera the spotlight.

I don't recommend them. Every time I went there to get film processed I would get back the film with an insane amount of fingerprints. It was like someone was eating a bag of chips as they were processing the films.

Many times I had to re-rinse to get the fingerprints off. Not my cup of tea. Toronto Image Works has always been my go to. But Downtown camera is really stepping up their film processing services to compliment their film selection.
 
Off the top of my head... most Wal-Marts had photo processing in-store as of about two years ago. That is now gone from all stores.


HHPhoto said:
Which shops have closed in the last two years?
Please list them.
Downtown Camera and Toronto Image Works have continued their business.
And Annex Photo with their new shop started about two years ago.

That labs and shops have closed has happened in most cases many years ago.
If I look at it on an international level, in the last two years more new labs have started business than old ones have closed. And lots of established labs have strengthened and invested in their business.

Cheers, Jan
Click to expand...
 
HHPhoto said:
Which shops have closed in the last two years?
Please list them.
Downtown Camera and Toronto Image Works have continued their business.
And Annex Photo with their new shop started about two years ago.

That labs and shops have closed has happened in most cases many years ago.
If I look at it on an international level, in the last two years more new labs have started business than old ones have closed. And lots of established labs have strengthened and invested in their business.

Cheers, Jan
Click to expand...

Shoppers Drug Mart doesn't accept films anymore. The last one that did it downtown was at king/yonge.

I'm not sure of the state of Aden camera's film processing but I assume that with the university crowd that they are sustaining themselves.
 
8 Elm Camera shut down a number of years ago (more than two).

We have one store in Guelph that still develops C-41, $9 a roll with no prints and no scan. That's in line with what Toronto Image Works charges.

Recently they have brought in stock of Ilford developer, stop and fixer for black and white developing, which I think it a good sign.
 
Huss said:
Funny how old people always claim it's the hipster movement that is driving it (and by choosing that word are using it in a derogatory way).
The majority of people who I see using film cameras are teens and 'kids' in their early twenties. They are the future. The 'hipsters' have already passed on the film torch to them even though they are still involved.

Bless the hipsters, every one of them, for they have sparked the revival that has now taken off!
Click to expand...

I completely agree.

Huss said:
p.s. and bless Lomography too, for they were the ones who saved film,
Click to expand...

But I have to completely disagree with that.
You are another victim of the marketing fairy tales of Lomography. I have met the founders of Lomography in person some years ago. Very arrogant people. And they have often said that "they have saved film".
But that is not case. It's just a marketing fairy tale.
I've discussed that with market research experts, and they showed me the statistics: Even in Lomography's best times (2010 - 2011) their market share in film sales have been less than 2% of the global market.
And since 2012 they are in a strong decline, their market share is even much lower now.
They have only survived by using the instax trend, and by selling their "Art Lenses" to digital shooters. Their former business model is again a "niche in the niche of a niche" as it was in their beginning in the 90ies.
Lomography is irrelevant for the future of film photography.
 
I'm youngish, I shoot film, I print my favorites, and I post the shots I like on social media. Film and film shooters may represent a small niche within the larger photographic community, but I'm confident that we're not going anywhere. Also, I routinely see teenagers and people younger than me wandering around with Canon AE-1s, Holgas, and even the occasional Leica.
 
xayraa33 said:
Hipsters or old Luddite codgers like me or not, it will not change the fact that film still photography is now a quaint process of the past that has been supplanted in everyday general photography done by the masses and by most professionals to make a living by.
Click to expand...

That film photography today is a niche market and on a much lower sales level than 20 years ago is of course right.
Everyone knows it.
But it is also completely irrelevant for the future of film!!
We only need about 2 million enthusiast film photographers worldwide in the long term for a very good and sustainable future of film.
Enthusiasts who shoot - on average - about 25 - 30 rolls of film p.a..
Makes 50-60 million films in total. That is more than today and enough to keep Kodak, Fujifilm, Ilford, Foma, Adox and Film Ferrania profitable and in business!
Currently about 3 - 3.5 billion people worldwide are taking photos. In 20 years it will be probably 5-6 billion worldwide.
So if then only 0.03% are shooting film, it is more than enough to keep film alive and kicking.
It is negligible and a tiny market in relative terms in comparison to digital imaging.
But for itself and in total it is a big and attractive global market. And that is all what film shooters need.
That 99.97% of all others use smartphones and digital cameras is totally irrelevant for film shooters.

Film can be extremely well as a niche market!
 
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