Inexpensive MF system with interchangeable backs?

I have an Arax CM, which is a repaired/upgraded version of the Kiev 88 CM. I have handled a regular Kiev 88 and in comparison, the Arax is much smoother, a bit quieter, and seems better put together. It's still not close to a Hasselblad in terms of fit-and-finish but its not that far off from a Mamiya RB67. I considered used Bronica and Mamiya kits that had a similar price. Even though they looked beautiful on the outside, they were all well used and were in need of CLA's. After all, these were professional cameras with, perhaps, thousands and thousands of rolls put through them. I went with the Arax as it would be like getting a new camera - albeit, a new Ukrainian camera. To my surprise, the Arax seemed more solid and smoother than the used Bronica and Mamiya cameras I considered. I've used it quiet a bit over the last year and it hasn't failed yet. Remembering cock the shutter before changing the shutter speed is a non issue for me. I must do the same thing with my Leica IIIf and I just got into the habit of always cocking the shutter before setting the shutter speed (with all my cameras).

The Pentacon-Six lenses are cheap and good. The Zeiss 50mm f4 Flektogon and 180mm f2.8 Sonnar that I have, are both exceptional lenses. Not many MF cameras have a 180mm as fast as f2.8. The standard Arax 80mm f2.8 is a good lens too with gorgeous bokeh wide open.

There are a few issues with Arax cameras when it comes to lens compatibility. There is some discussion about this in the following thread on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/13001852@N00/discuss/72157600360245614/
 
Nando,

If you forget to cock the shutter on the Kiev 88/Arax doesn't it break the camera, requiring repair? I didn't know that Barnack Leicas needed cocked before changing speeds. What happens with them if you forget?
 
My Bronica SQA cosmetically looked like the equivalent of a NYC taxi cab with 300,000 miles on it when I got it five years ago. It has worked without problem since. I asked my local camera repair guy, a Hassleblad specialist, about a CLA. He told me if it was still working perfectly, don't mess with it.
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
Nando,

If you forget to cock the shutter on the Kiev 88/Arax doesn't it break the camera, requiring repair? I didn't know that Barnack Leicas needed cocked before changing speeds. What happens with them if you forget?
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In regards to the Kiev 88/Arax. Yes, it will break the camera. However, the Kiev 60/Arax 60 MF SLR doesn't have that issue but it also doesn't have interchangeable backs.

Making this mistake is not as damaging on a Leica IIIf. If you set the shutter-speed before cocking the shutter, you just get an incorrect speed setting. As far as I know, it won't damage to the camera.
 
"You're saying that a MF camera blows a Leica away?"

That's what I said. It's interesting to me in looking at books of photos from the past, how the technical quality of photos dipped from the 60s onwards as more and more people started using 35mm (including Leicas). It's easy to recognize photos from the 70s, when the nadir of cheap consumer cameras occurred, in both color and B&W.
 
Today almost all MF SLR systems are cheap, Bronicas have an excellent value for the money, and all Bronica SLRs have exchangeable magazines.
With this in mind, skip all illusions that russian cameras like the Kievs come close to japanese quality. When people discuss in forums about their MF cameras they talk about images. When it comes to Kievs most discussions are about repairs. Here in Germany many people have PentaconSix and Kiev cameras from former east germany, and the german forums are full with these discussions.
 
M like Leica M6 said:
Today almost all MF SLR systems are cheap, Bronicas have an excellent value for the money, and all Bronica SLRs have exchangeable magazines.
With this in mind, skip all illusions that russian cameras like the Kievs come close to japanese quality. When people discuss in forums about their MF cameras they talk about images. When it comes to Kievs most discussions are about repairs. Here in Germany many people have PentaconSix and Kiev cameras from former east germany, and the german forums are full with these discussions.
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That bad? Ouch! The Bronica is sounding more and more like the best choice here...
 
guy-montag said:
That bad? Ouch! The Bronica is sounding more and more like the best choice here...
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All fans of commie cameras will swear it is not that bad. But as I said, at today's prices for very good MF equipment, why save a few cents more and take risks?

I am currently offering two MF cameras here in the classifieds, and I can tell you that the prices make me cry... :bang:

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/13387/cat/500

http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost-classifieds/showproduct.php/product/13430/cat/500
 
Chriscrawfordphoto said:
... and I know I'd eventually ruin it by changing the shutter speed before winding the shutter. That jams them up and they need to be disassembled by a repairman to fix it.
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This is not quite true. I've owned several Kiev cameras (Kiev 88, Saljut-S, Hartblei 1006C) and I never knew this "problem" before reading from Kievaholics. I never had any problems using those like any other MF set. Some of those warnings are very overcautious.

Problems might occurr, if you happen to somehow wind and change the shutter speed at the same time and the system gets messed up, but you can prevent this by pressing the shutter dial towards the body when winding.
 
..And I would also recommend a Pentacon Six or two. You can get a body cheaper than a back for a Hasselblad, at least in Europe. It is quite nice camera after all, even though I would prefer the "Hassy shape" Kiev's if it wasn't for some film back problems and P6-mount compability.

80mm Biometar has a lot nicer bokeh than the 80mm Arsat (Volna). 90mm Vega has ok bokeh too. Biometar however focuses only at 1m, where Arsat/Volna comes somwhere around 0,7m IIRC. 120mm Biometar is a GREAT portrait lense that I would highly recommend. You can get most of, or even all the "Kiev mount" lenses to a P6 camera, but the other way it is harder.

Pentacon sixes sometimes have problems with the film transport, but I think it shouldn't be too bad to fix, maybe theres some help in the internet too to do it yourself in case it would be necessary (I know theres some tips for Kiev 60). Other than that I think its quite simple and reliable camera, as most of the Kievs are if they are not broken etc...
 
guy-montag said:
I'm all over 220 heh. Given that it's only about $1.50 more than 120 to develop over here in Dallas, for twice the amount of frames, it's a steal 😀

One of the reasons I'm big on waist level finders is that it allows for street photography that isn't as blatant as sticking a big camera up to your face. If you're seated and looking down at a camera, people don't really notice you as much. Plus it allows for a more steady platform than holding a camera up by hand.
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Amidst all this talk of 645, one more reason to at least look at the Mamiya Universal or Super Press 23. All backs use both 120 and 220. Your choice at the time you load film.

They do not have waist level finders, but there are backs for cut film that have eye level finders. Not the same of course, eye-level or waist, and cut film versus roll film. However, for street shooting, a 65mm or 50mm lens make that less of a concern. Be aware the 50mm is harder to find, and more expensive. On a budget, you won't be getting one of those and a couple more just for spares. The 65mm is easier to come across and less expensive.

Nothing wrong with any of the cameras mentioned, such as 645 and 6x6 with or without waist level finders. However, the Mamiya Unversal/Press 23 cameras are simply less well known. Not as many people have them. In the heyday of the SLR, an MF SLR was obviously going to get a lot of attention. The press camera was old hat, and equated to the 4x5 press cameras.

Do a search on ebay, butkus.org for the manual, and the 'net in general. At least if you decide you don't like it, you won't wonder later if you should have looked at it before you bought whatever you end up with.

EDIT: You also could do a search here on RFF. I have described the Mamiya press cameras better in a couple of threads.
 
Talking about Zenza Bronica, don't forget the GS-1. It is a very leightweight 6x7 SLR with exchangeable magazines (6x7, 6x6, 6x4.5 and Polaroid), finders and good lenses. It's a bargain as you will see in my classifieds (or, to say it in other words, the price for which they go can make a grown man cry.)
 
I have a Mamiya M645 Super and can heartily recommend it for build quality and it's been said that it's easier to get parts and accessories for Mamiyas than Bronicas. Got a great deal on the original outfit that included two film backs, 80mm f1.9 (fastest lens of any medium format system I know of) and metering prism finder for only about $400. I later bought myself a waist-level finder, but I never have really used it as I'm much more of an eye-level prism kind of shooter. The WLF is in good shape though.

While I can't exactly call it "light," I think the Mamiya Super compares favorably to other entries in this orbit. I've just carried it around on a strap while out shooting, and I am rather on the small side.

Mamiya Super, 55mm f2.8 + yellow filter on Tri-X developed in D-76
 
I have a hasselblad 500c/m, but I find it a pain to go shooting with. I normally use a tripod with it, and it is very slow to focus and compose. Compared with my 35mm film cameras, its a big drag. I do love the big negatives though 🙂
 
M like Leica M6 said:
Today almost all MF SLR systems are cheap, Bronicas have an excellent value for the money, and all Bronica SLRs have exchangeable magazines.
With this in mind, skip all illusions that russian cameras like the Kievs come close to japanese quality. When people discuss in forums about their MF cameras they talk about images. When it comes to Kievs most discussions are about repairs. Here in Germany many people have PentaconSix and Kiev cameras from former east germany, and the german forums are full with these discussions.
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Lol - you should check out some of the hassy forums - they are not as reliable as some people think. Having used both Kiev and Hassy, plus several Mamiya systems - 645 and RB, plus Kowa6 I can tell you that all systems are good and all can have problems. Maybe I was lucky, but NONE of my systems really had any issues other than light leaks on the Kiev88 and Hassy backs. Simple fix.
I still have
 
Krosya said:
Maybe I was lucky, but NONE of my systems really had any issues other than light leaks on the Kiev88 and Hassy backs.
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If you want a change, why not try a used Pentacon or Seagull? Big time for your repairman.
 
Horses for courses. If you intend to keep your 35mm, then I would recomend you go all the way and buy a Mamiya RZ67 with 50mm and 110mm lenses. If you intend to sell the Leica to finance the MF set up, then perhaps something smaller and more portable would be better. e.g. Mamiya 7 or Plaubel Makina 67.
I miss my RZ67 lots.. I keep getting tempted to swap my M6 back for it. On the down side.. Dont try and take it hiking. I hiked round Mallorca with 2 lenses and a tripod. The weight did my back in, and I didnt enjoy it one little bit.
 

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Most Contemporary with huge availability and>>>

Most Contemporary with huge availability and>>>

the most features for the money you spend....

The Bronica ETRSi... complete... as you requested all the way to Superb metered prisms and mirror lockup. Widely available at great prices. Not uncommon to find a nice ETRSi with standard prism (unmetered), one back, 75mm lens for under $500 as a package. There is no doubt in my mind, that if you want waist level finders, you can surely get the latest ETRSi (the fullest featured body), one back and one lens within your budget. You might even get the side handle w/thumb.cocking mechanism.

Of all the cameras listed, the ETRSi is lightest and most compact. Lenses are all leaf shutter, so flash sync at varied speeds is covered. Again... there are a lot of them available. Never had a problem on reliability.

If you want 6X6, the Bronica SQ-Ai is the last model in that series. Same high points as the ETRSi and will meet your highest standards for Image Quality. Bit bigger than the ETRSi, but both of the Bronica's are less heavy and more compact than their Mamiya counterparts. Both are leaf shutter. They abound on eBay usually, and one of my favorite sellers on Bronica in the past has been Shutterblade.

I like Mamiya and have had a number of them, but I switched to Bronica when I handled my first ETRSi against a Mamiya Super Pro.

There are some unusual backs for both brands. There are 120 and 220 backs of course. There are also some 35mm backs. I have seen them roll vertically for portrait mode, and there is a horizontal rolling back for panoramic 35. They come up on eBay more often than one might think.

One very nice thing about the backs is that they open two ways. If you change formats... 120, 220 or 35mm, You need full backs. If you shoot a bunch of rolls in the same format, you only need the inserts which are much less expensive. If you go with the inserts, you can preload them and carry them in the lightproof plastic boxes made for inserts only. Many of the inserts will come with the lightproof box if you shop around.

You can change the inserts on the ETRSi while the back stays on the camera. I can't recall if the Mamiya backs have that secondary opening system.

Hey... I'm talking myself back into a Bronica here. Krap.. and I am so ecstatic about my Fuji GA645Zi. If I hadn't figured out that when I had interchangable backs I never used them, I'd probably still have an ETRSi.

Interchangable backs, for my uses, are highly over-rated, and when you move to system cameras, you spend a lot of shooting time hunting for more and elusive pieces that you can't live without.

My Fuji is high quality glass on a body with a 55-90 zoom in 645, autofocus that is right on, and metering that works fine. On top of that, it's not much bigger than a 35mm SLR and no pieces to mess with. I'd put the image with the Fuji up against any glass out there, and only trump it with the Fuji GW690III.
 
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