Darthfeeble
But you can call me Steve
It worked for Fuji. Of course all us luddite-ish types are hoping for a retro style. Canon has just blown it with that silly M.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Adapted lenses. No mirror slap. and so on.
Size and weight of a camera don't affect me that much as long as I can physically carry it, but the ability to have one digital body, with an up to date first rate sensor, like the one in the D850, coupled with great ergonomics (i.e. for some people, completely unlike Sony bodies, and unlike the Sony menu diving system), which people can use with any 35mm lens they like, regardless of the original manufacturer or mount, is huge for some people.
A thinner body is the least of it.
The ergonomics of the Leica SL are superb, but that's a costly purchase for most, and some people want more megapixels (different discussion) than the SL offers, so a legitimate rationale for Nikon to really step up to the plate and do this right is certainly there.
It's the "doing it right" part that worries the Nikon faithful lately.
willie_901
Veteran
mich rassena
Well-known
I hope Nikon is willing to gamble on making this camera good without having any concern that it will undercut their SLR line. It's time for Nikon to take some risks and look beyond the mirror. Ultimately, this is about Nikon's survival as a company. I'd rather they didn't make SLRs than they didn't make cameras.
Archlich
Well-known
The camera better be fast. It would be hard for anyone to hit the mark with the very first try though.
BillBingham2
Registered User
So Nikon, what's it going to be.......
Are you pulling a Kodak or an IBM?
Will you put your head in the sand further and pull a Kodak, a Wang, ah so many to choose from. OR will you wise up and go down the road of IBM, Apple and a few others who embraced change and continued to grow and thrive?
Nikon had the guts with the F, so how did you make the decision then?
Initially price wont be that much of an issue, but remember how many more Nikkors you sold when the Nikkormat came out.....
B2 (;->
Are you pulling a Kodak or an IBM?
Will you put your head in the sand further and pull a Kodak, a Wang, ah so many to choose from. OR will you wise up and go down the road of IBM, Apple and a few others who embraced change and continued to grow and thrive?
Nikon had the guts with the F, so how did you make the decision then?
Initially price wont be that much of an issue, but remember how many more Nikkors you sold when the Nikkormat came out.....
B2 (;->
BillBingham2
Registered User
There's a few out there. The Toyota Tercel was the last one out and was as good as the pack and in many ways much better. Nikon was smart enough, listen to NPS, read here and other sides. They did really well when with the F3. The F3 AF not so much.
Fingers, toes and eyes crossed.
B2 (%->
mich rassena
Well-known
It's very apt to compare Nikon to Kodak. They've been resting on their laurels far too long.
lynnb
Veteran
Have a read of Thom Hogan's thoughts on Nikon's new releases for 2018. Brooklynguy zeroed in on the glaring omission of primes. Thom suggests Nikon might finally have realised this. He mentions Nikon's patents for FF primes, but I'm not sure if these are Z-mount (shorter flange distance) or F-mount:
24mm f/1.8
36mm f/1.2
52mm f/0.9
24-70mm f/2.8-4
The above would be IMO the minimum lenses needed on launch to ensure a new FF Z-mount mirrorless doesn't get ignored by all but the relatively few enthusiasts who want to mount non-native lenses.
Thom's article mentions both FF and APS-C mirrorless models to be released, with some uncertainty about which will be released first. Whichever it is, I hope the message got through that a big slice of the enthusiast market will stay away unless there's a decent lens lineup and road map. At the price point of the Z-mount the market would be 100% enthusiasts.
24mm f/1.8
36mm f/1.2
52mm f/0.9
24-70mm f/2.8-4
The above would be IMO the minimum lenses needed on launch to ensure a new FF Z-mount mirrorless doesn't get ignored by all but the relatively few enthusiasts who want to mount non-native lenses.
Thom's article mentions both FF and APS-C mirrorless models to be released, with some uncertainty about which will be released first. Whichever it is, I hope the message got through that a big slice of the enthusiast market will stay away unless there's a decent lens lineup and road map. At the price point of the Z-mount the market would be 100% enthusiasts.
shawn
Veteran
Nikon has done that before though. The original Nikon 1 was very fast. Arguably faster than every other companies first mirrorless camera.
Shawn
michaelwj
----------------
Bold - Not true.
Actually, when the focal length of the lens is less than or equal to the FBD of the SLR the lenses can be made smaller. True telephoto lenses can also be made smaller.
Two cases;
1. The size difference between the Leica Summicron ASPH and the Nikkor 35/1.8 FX. The Leica is 35mm long (from the flange) and the Nikkor is 71mm long. Add in the ~20mm of extra flange depth to the Nikkor and the difference in length is about 60mm.
2. The same is not true for the Nikkor 85/1.8 vs the Leica 90mm Summicron, the Leica is about 5mm longer than the Nikkor. However, a true telephoto design like the 90mm tele-Elmarit can shrink the length down to ~60mm.
*I'm not including the diameter, as that is highly influenced by focus methods. The length however, is not.
mcfingon
Western Australia
Thanks for the link, Lynn. Thom analyses camera marketing better than any of the web photo pages I read. I would love it if Nikon made a FF mirrorless camera that looked like the RF Nikons of the 50's , and an adapter to use F-mount Nikon lenses, but rational thought like Thom's says that that won't happen. RF enthusiasts like us must be a tiny portion of the market.
John Mc
Archlich
Well-known
The 1'' arena was a different story. They thought they were the only game in town but the RX100 horde appeared in no time. On the other hand the a7 was the only game in town - and was allowed enough time for trial and error.
Is the D850 Nikon's first try? Definitely not. But the Z, their actual first try in a new category, will have to compete with the a7R III which is (to many) almost as good as the D850. And unlike Sony, Nikon doesn't have much time.
I do wish them best crossing my fingers over the F6.
shawn
Veteran
I meant if you look at each companies first generation mirrorless camera (of any sensor size) the Nikon 1 was arguably the fastest of all of them. And faster than some later generations as well. Nikon *can* do it, will they is another question.
Shawn
willie_901
Veteran
I Hope Nikon Changes
I Hope Nikon Changes
The Nikon 1 system is very quick, but it's easy to be quick.
As sensor area decreases, the wider DOF achieved with most lenses and apertures means useful AF algorithms can be simpler and faster. The camera CPU speed and assembly language coding efficiency is less important.
Still, Nikon also has proven engineering expertise with all aspects of AF technology. I agree Nikon is capable of offering the best mirrorless AF versatility and performance on the planet. Yet they refused to provide the best possible manual focusing aids for DSLR customers with AI/AIS lenses.
The issue is whether or not Nikon senior management understands their customers' dedication to excellence is not a function of sensor area, whether or not their camera has a finder with a reflex mirror or how they prefer to use lenses.
So far, Nikon seems to believe they can dictate customer behavior. So, I just gave up and invested in a different brand.
I hope Nikon implements a completely different marketing strategy beginning with the Z mount product line.
I Hope Nikon Changes
The Nikon 1 system is very quick, but it's easy to be quick.
As sensor area decreases, the wider DOF achieved with most lenses and apertures means useful AF algorithms can be simpler and faster. The camera CPU speed and assembly language coding efficiency is less important.
Still, Nikon also has proven engineering expertise with all aspects of AF technology. I agree Nikon is capable of offering the best mirrorless AF versatility and performance on the planet. Yet they refused to provide the best possible manual focusing aids for DSLR customers with AI/AIS lenses.
The issue is whether or not Nikon senior management understands their customers' dedication to excellence is not a function of sensor area, whether or not their camera has a finder with a reflex mirror or how they prefer to use lenses.
So far, Nikon seems to believe they can dictate customer behavior. So, I just gave up and invested in a different brand.
I hope Nikon implements a completely different marketing strategy beginning with the Z mount product line.
MaxElmar
Well-known
So true sir! Nikon wants to engineer their customers.
Me too. Gone to Fuji. But I still have enough Nikon glass that I would go back for the right mirrorless system.