Is there a logical replacement for the Bronica RF645?

[Keith]

I've had my RF645 for several years and have switched from liking it at various times to being indifferent at others. I managed to pick up a 100mm Zenzanon lens only to discover that the camera came with 135mm frame lines and try as I might I could never make that work successfully so sold the lens a while ago. The 65mm the camera came with is a great lens but for portraits it's fairly useless and the actual 135mm lens that was made to match these framelines seems to be virtually unobtainable these days.

It's a truly great camera but not having an option for portraits is limiting it's use and although the 6x4.5 format is the smallest used with 120 film it still clobbers 135mm for detail and tonality etc ... and you get sixteen shots per roll.

What other MF cameras (SLR or rangefinder) use this format and which ones have a decent range of lenses at affordable prices because I'm seriously thinking of letting the RF645 go and considering other options ... though I do realise that very few alternatives will handle as well as the very compact Bronica does.

 

[RObert Budding]

There were things that I really liked about my RF645, but I sold it several years ago and bought a Mamiya 7 II. The Mamiya has been excellent, and the 150mm lens is superb. Tight head shots are out, but I can live with that. The downside is price.

There are some nice SLR choices in 645, but you'll gain bulk and weight. Then there are the Fuji rangefinders.

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/g690bl.html

 

[Gordon Moat]

Depends upon whether you want to crop your shots, or if you mean headshot for "portraits". As much as I hate to state it, if you want tightly framed headshots, then an SLR works much better. In that case I would suggest a Mamiya 645, of which there are many variations, and lots of lenses.

If you want to crop your shots, then a Mamiya 7 might be a great choice. You can still shoot with a fine rangefinder and nice lenses, though only 10 shots per roll. However, the frame size is so large that cropping is easy without giving up much in quality in the final print.

I have the RF645 with the 45mm and 65mm. This system is definitely not for everyone, but it has been a great workhorse for me. I'm not sure if I would ever get the 100mm, since I use the 45mm more than the 65mm. An even wider lens would've been nice. If I need something more telephoto, then I grab an SLR.

 

[Keith]

Depends upon whether you want to crop your shots, or if you mean headshot for "portraits". As much as I hate to state it, if you want tightly framed headshots, then an SLR works much better. In that case I would suggest a Mamiya 645, of which there are many variations, and lots of lenses.

If you want to crop your shots, then a Mamiya 7 might be a great choice. You can still shoot with a fine rangefinder and nice lenses, though only 10 shots per roll. However, the frame size is so large that cropping is easy without giving up much in quality in the final print.

I have the RF645 with the 45mm and 65mm. This system is definitely not for everyone, but it has been a great workhorse for me. I'm not sure if I would ever get the 100mm, since I use the 45mm more than the 65mm. An even wider lens would've been nice. If I need something more telephoto, then I grab an SLR.

Thanks Gordon ... I was checking the Mamiya 645 and it looks OK.

I took the RF645 out for a blast with a roll of HP5+ in it today and it responded by refusing to advance past the first frame! :bang:

Pressing the little pin that releases the shutter lock did the trick and it was fine after that. They are a strange camera ... this one was CLA'd by Tamron before I got it but every now and then it does something weird to piss me off! And it only ever does it once! 😛

 

[kuzano]

I tend to agree with Gordon on the Mamiya...But...

I tend to agree with Gordon on the Mamiya...But...

You will spend less money for equivalent SLR 645 in the Bronica ETRSi. The camera with back and lens and AF Prism will be less bulky than the Mamiya Pro or TL series.

Added advantage... Leaf shutter in all lenses.

You may know that you will go to a landscape mode with an SLR, BUT... the Bronica ETR series cameras do have a 135 back available in portrait, and in 135W with a 24x56 Pano format. I do not know for a fact, but would not be surprised if there is a vertical rolling portrait mode back for same in 120.

Tons of inventory out there, at very reasonable prices. I've owned a half dozen of the ETR and ETRS models and never experienced a problem. You can preload extra inserts OR full backs for midroll change.

 

[GaryLH]

A baby Linhof? 😛

All kidding aside... In terms of weight, handling with interchangeable lens, and rf, the mamiya 6 is a closer match... If u do not mind an slr style, I would go with the mamiya 645.

On the other hand, how about a Bessa II 6x9 and crop the frame to 645 when u need portrait?

Good luck
Gary

 

[Brian Legge]

A bessa ii would be one of the more expensive ways to do it. 🙂 Great cameras but I'm not sure if the are the right fit for the needs listed here.

 

[RObert Budding]

You will spend less money for equivalent SLR 645 in the Bronica ETRSi. The camera with back and lens and AF Prism will be less bulky than the Mamiya Pro or TL series.

Added advantage... Leaf shutter in all lenses.

You may know that you will go to a landscape mode with an SLR, BUT... the Bronica ETR series cameras do have a 135 back available in portrait, and in 135W with a 24x56 Pano format. I do not know for a fact, but would not be surprised if there is a vertical rolling portrait mode back for same in 120.

Tons of inventory out there, at very reasonable prices. I've owned a half dozen of the ETR and ETRS models and never experienced a problem. You can preload extra inserts OR full backs for midroll change.

The ETRSi is an excellent recommendation for a 645 SLR. It has leaf shutters so you get flash sync at all shutter speeds.

 

[fotobiblios]

Pentax 645.
SLR.
excellent lenses -- 120f4 macro, 150f2.8 for your portraits (or covered by 3 zooms) -good price
and if you ever want to go digi the 645D will be cheaper one day soon

 

[brian steinberger]

If you're looking to stick with rangefinders and the 6x4.5 format then the Fuji rangefinders are the only other option, and those are fixed lens cameras, so not as versatile as the RF645. In SLR's I would definitely go with the Mamiya 645 pro TL. Great camera, tons of lenses, and very cheap. It can do all types of photography. Go to KEH and price one out. I had a Mamiya 645 system but sold it due to the fact that I just love shooting MF rangefinders too much. I'm not a huge fan of SLRs anyway but I am keeping my Hasselblad for the day all my electronic cameras die... 🙂

 

[Keith]

I'm not short of options when it comes to MF. I have my 67ii Pentax and a 500cm Hassy to cover 6x6 and 6x7 but I do like the ability to still have a decent sized neg and get sixteen shots per roll which is really the reason I've hung on to the RF645 ... that and the fact that the camera is amazing to shoot with. It's size and ergonomics make it as easy to use as any 35mm rangefinder I've used.

The plain answer it seems is that no one makes anything that matches it ... the Mamiya rangefinders come close in usability but with a different format! The SLR choices for 6x4.5 don't really excite me so maybe I'm stuck with the Bronica and will just have to live with the one focal length.

 

[brian steinberger]

Get a Mamiya 645 pro TL with the motorized grip. Handles just like an over sized 35mm. You'll get 15 shots to a roll and the viewfinder is horizontal. That's gonna be your closest SLR version to the RF645. Bronica ETRsi with grip is very similar and quieter than the motorized grip, though I find it a bit bulkier overall.

 

[benlees]

I really wanted a RF645 but the prices used seem higher than brand new (taking into account the big discounts these cameras had). I realized I could get a Fuji GA645 and the GA645W for less than the Bronica kit (excluding the telephoto). Granted, no rangefinder but, hey, I'm cheap. I prefer smaller cameras and don't use a lot of focal lengths (no SLR for me) so Fuji to the rescue.

 

[GaryLH]

A bessa ii would be one of the more expensive ways to do it. 🙂 Great cameras but I'm not sure if the are the right fit for the needs listed here.

Would not disagree on that point. Which is why I started my comment referring to Mamiya 6 as closest to the bronica rf. mainly wanted to throw it out there to c if it was acceptable option. 😀

Gary

 

[Abbazz]

What about a Fuji GA645zi

What about a Fuji GA645zi

I would suggest a Fuji GA645Zi. It's about the same size as the Bronica RF645 (a bit less bulky in fact, because the lens collapses when not in use).

At first sight, the zoom lens seems rather limited both in range (55 to 90mm) and aperture (F/4.5 at 55mm to F/6.9 at 90mm). But these conservative specs allowed Fuji to design an exceptional lens, with superb optical quality at every focal length, right from wide open.

In fact the range is quite useful and turns the camera into an oversized point-and-shoot delivering great images. 55mm is a moderate wide (like a 34mm on a Leica), while 90mm is a short telephoto, ideal for half body portraits. Portraits taken wide open at 90mm show very good background separation and nice bokeh.

As for the max aperture, it is not as bad as it looks, since medium format makes it possible to use 800 ISO film with very good results. The shutter release is also very smooth, allowing to take sharp pictures at 1/30. And for those situations where it's really too dark to see, the built-in flash will save the day -- it's also great to open the shadows in high contrast situations!

Of course, the rangefinder purists will argue that the Fuji is nothing more than a stupid autofocus camera, with automatic exposure on top of that, therefore only deserving our contempt. But in fact the automatic features work very well on the GA645Zi, making it a pleasure to use: autofocus is reasonably fast as well as very accurate, and auto-exposure is always spot-on. And if you insist, it's of course possible to bypass these automatic features to operate the camera manually.

Last but not least, the Fuji is tough. Yes, it's fully electronic and 100% battery-dependent but its also very reliable (I bought mine used a few years ago and never experienced a problem, despite having carried it throughout the Borneo jungle during the five years I was posted there). The lithium battery lasts quite a long time and keeps very well in storage so you can always have a spare.

Here's a PDF brochure (courtesy of Keh.com):

http://www.keh.com/PDFFolder/FM04999034329.pdf

Cheers!

Abbazz

 

[kuzano]

Fuji... good reccomendation... if the 90 works for you

Fuji... good reccomendation... if the 90 works for you

You may think the 90 is shorter than you want, but it is a good portrait lens.

The Zi is, as noted, very reliable. But it's best feature after you get all your other needs sorted out, is how quiet the shutter is in use. I've had 3 of the Zi models. I always had to look at the counter to see if it took the shot. Quiet, oh so quiet, in both the shutter action AND the transport to next frame.

When I realize it was not really much bigger than my GS645 folder, I switched.

Sharp, Sharp, Sharp with a great AF accuracy and on point meter system.

 

[KenR]

Mamiya 6 is only slightly larger than the RF645 and built like a tank in comparison. No need to switch from vertical to horizontal with the square format.

 

[Spanik]

Well there is also the Kiev 60 in 645 adaption. Got one of those and with the complete range of P6 mount objectifs at your command you don't have much to complain about. Same vertical format, 16 exposures in an SLR. You can put a waistlevel viewfinder if that's your fancy. A Sonnar 180/2.8 is nice for portraits or a Biometar 120/2.8. Disadvantage is they are heavy, no automation and noisy.

The Fuji Zi comes indeed closest on handling, weight, noise and automation.

Myself I use my Mamiya 645 most of the time. I find it the best allround camera for me, but it needs a grip to handle comfortably.

 

[CK Dexter Haven]

I had the Mamiya 6 way before the Bronica. Didn't like the 6. It was a great form factor. Felt solid and all. Operationally nice. But, the 75mm lens' bokeh was a mess. If you like the Bronica's rendering, you'll be unhappy with the Mamiya 6's, unless you shoot stopped-down.

I had the Fuji GA645zi for a short period. You can't really tell if the AF is accurate until you get the film back. I found mine wasn't calibrated and lost time, money, and opportunity. I vowed not to trust those types of cameras, but because everyone else seemed so thrilled with theirs, I later tried the non-zoom model, and had the same results. That was it for AF rangefinders, which is when i went to the Bronica.

In between, i've had the Mamiya 645ProTL, with the motor. Be warned: it is LOUD. I'm typically not sensitive to camera noise, but there have been three exceptions. This, the Hasselblad 203FE's motor, and the winder for the Nikon FE2. In each case, i found it 'offensive.' And, i'm used to the Canon EOS3, which is sorta loud. With the manual focus Mamiya 645's motor advance, people around will know you've done something. I once had the 645AF, and remember it to be quieter, but still - if you're going for a quiet rangerfinder-ish experience, these cameras are not that.

 

[Matus]

I can only support Dexter's assessment of the Mamiya 6 75mm lens bokeh. I would only add nearly unusable meter with the 150 lens (which has a very nice boken in contrast to 75) as the Mamiya 6 meters area larger that the coverage of the 50 lens.

I would say - if you like the RF645 - hang on it and be patient to get the 135 lens - and sell the 100. As both of these are rare you will not loose much cash in the proces.

I am actually thinking of the RF to replace my Mamiya 6 (I have all 3 lenses) - I just got a Minolta Autocord for 6x6 (I love this format and Tessar lenses).

To get an idea of how much bigger the camera gets once you go from MF to SLR in 645 format look HERE (side note - I would LOVE to get my hands on both RF645 and Contax 645)