Yet, 800,000 people commit suicide every year. I note your use of quotes.
ktmrider
Well-known
The one thing the government cannot take away from you although they have tried.
But your point seems to be it is better to be dead than depressed.
But your point seems to be it is better to be dead than depressed.
LCSmith
Well-known
I hope the following will be consolation, as it is intended. Theses are the beginning, not the end. Almost everyone looks back on their thesis/dissertation and cringes at its inadequacy. You seem to have wanted it to be more, and I get that. We all want to create something worthwhile as a reflection of ourselves. It could have been worse. Some people end up with diabolical thesis directors who are never satisfied. Consider your director's "good enough" as a kindness from someone who has perspective, that the really good work you do is still to come.
Larry Cloetta
Veteran
Phil,
Before this thread goes off the rails, I’d just like to echo what many others have said, as there isn’t much to add to that. Hang in there, things that seem overwhelming today, recede almost out of our memories eventually. They just do, given enough time. My first wife, 45 years ago, attempted suicide during our breakup, that’s how awful and world ending that was for both of us. Now we exchange Christmas cards, and she and my second wife are friends on Facebook. Over time, mountains come to be seen as the molehills they always were, though it’s almost surely impossible for you to see that right now, so just hang around. Get outside, for heaven’s sake, and take a walk. And another one. And another one. If photography was really important to you, it will come back eventually. If it doesn’t, then it wasn’t, but don’t worry about it now. Life evens out, if you give it a chance, and that’s not a Pollyanna view, but you do have to hang in there long enough to give it a chance.
Before this thread goes off the rails, I’d just like to echo what many others have said, as there isn’t much to add to that. Hang in there, things that seem overwhelming today, recede almost out of our memories eventually. They just do, given enough time. My first wife, 45 years ago, attempted suicide during our breakup, that’s how awful and world ending that was for both of us. Now we exchange Christmas cards, and she and my second wife are friends on Facebook. Over time, mountains come to be seen as the molehills they always were, though it’s almost surely impossible for you to see that right now, so just hang around. Get outside, for heaven’s sake, and take a walk. And another one. And another one. If photography was really important to you, it will come back eventually. If it doesn’t, then it wasn’t, but don’t worry about it now. Life evens out, if you give it a chance, and that’s not a Pollyanna view, but you do have to hang in there long enough to give it a chance.
ironhorse
Joe DuPont
LC Smith has provides an excellent perspective on the situation. I have been a Physical Therapist since 1978 and completed my doctorate in 2014. In my field I always considered my degrees to be a means to an end of providing better patient care and not an end unto itself.
Best of luck on your journey, Phil.
Best of luck on your journey, Phil.
oftheherd
Veteran
Phil,
I can feel your pain. My wife has fibromyalgia, and has had it for about 25 years now following a car accident. There is little to no relief. If she finds something that gives some relief, her body quickly compensates to overcome it. At this point, I am beginning to get some bouts of it as well. No medication helps my wife longer than about 2-3 weeks, then it gets worse. So as I said, I can feel your pain.
That doesn't mean I can offer any real help. Just what you are doing now; trying to reach out and make some sense of it. That sharing hopefully will help. Actually, I expect with your background, you will have helped some others to look at themselves with more understanding. What could you do better at?
Anyway, please hang in there and take life on day at a time, or two, or whatever works best for you. Oh, keep that thesis for ideas as we get out of this mess. I am sure you have good things in it from a perspective that not many, if any, have put together.
Prayers your way.
I can feel your pain. My wife has fibromyalgia, and has had it for about 25 years now following a car accident. There is little to no relief. If she finds something that gives some relief, her body quickly compensates to overcome it. At this point, I am beginning to get some bouts of it as well. No medication helps my wife longer than about 2-3 weeks, then it gets worse. So as I said, I can feel your pain.
That doesn't mean I can offer any real help. Just what you are doing now; trying to reach out and make some sense of it. That sharing hopefully will help. Actually, I expect with your background, you will have helped some others to look at themselves with more understanding. What could you do better at?
Anyway, please hang in there and take life on day at a time, or two, or whatever works best for you. Oh, keep that thesis for ideas as we get out of this mess. I am sure you have good things in it from a perspective that not many, if any, have put together.
Prayers your way.
moggi1964
Established
My son didn't get to sit his A' Levels this year (the examinations he sits in the UK that give him the grades he needs to go to University), instead the Government decided to give the students grades based on predications from earlier work and his teachers.
For a while he was a little concerned but he got the grades he needed to go to the University of his choice however then he began to feel like he had been given a free pass (despite knowing deep down he was good enough to get those grades and likely better grades). He struggled with this for a while and whilst he understood it was out of his control it still got him down. We kept an eye on him and over time he shifted his focus to doing more positive stuff (he picked up his violin again after about 6 years of not playing it) and even began to emerge from his bedroom at times other than mealtime.
He started talking to us about how he had felt and how he was feeling and we listened.
It didn't help that this was meant to be his gap year where he was going to work for six months and then travel for six before starting university. He started applying for jobs in July and finally got one in late November. It is unlikely he will be travelling very far before October 2021 I suspect.
It was a struggle for him (and us too as it is difficult to know what the right thing to say and do is) but I think he began to realise he could only influence the things that were within his control. He accepted that he would get lots of rejections for jobs and that the area he was most likely to get a job in (retail or food) was mostly shut down due to Covid.
I don't know if any of what I have written will seem familiar to you or be helpful but I wanted to offer it up for you to use if it does help.
For a while he was a little concerned but he got the grades he needed to go to the University of his choice however then he began to feel like he had been given a free pass (despite knowing deep down he was good enough to get those grades and likely better grades). He struggled with this for a while and whilst he understood it was out of his control it still got him down. We kept an eye on him and over time he shifted his focus to doing more positive stuff (he picked up his violin again after about 6 years of not playing it) and even began to emerge from his bedroom at times other than mealtime.
He started talking to us about how he had felt and how he was feeling and we listened.It didn't help that this was meant to be his gap year where he was going to work for six months and then travel for six before starting university. He started applying for jobs in July and finally got one in late November. It is unlikely he will be travelling very far before October 2021 I suspect.
It was a struggle for him (and us too as it is difficult to know what the right thing to say and do is) but I think he began to realise he could only influence the things that were within his control. He accepted that he would get lots of rejections for jobs and that the area he was most likely to get a job in (retail or food) was mostly shut down due to Covid.
I don't know if any of what I have written will seem familiar to you or be helpful but I wanted to offer it up for you to use if it does help.
Bill Clark
Veteran
Never give up.
Never, ever.
There is some luck in life. The harder you work the luckier you’ll get.
Keep going.
Never, ever.
There is some luck in life. The harder you work the luckier you’ll get.
Keep going.
Dante_Stella
Rex canum cattorumque
Now that I have at least hamfistedly tried to give words of encouragement to Phil, I have to ask some of you, what the [hell]?
It's mind-blowing to me that in a world where (just in the U.S. alone), 3,000 people a day [a daily 9/11 or Pearl Harbor!] are dying of a disease, a couple hundred thousand people are being infected a day, and both commerce and human contact have been severely impacted --
-- that anyone thinks that it's abnormal for people to be down, anxious, upset, or demoralized. The science says it's normal for things like a pandemic to exacerbate people's existing afflictions and to cause new ones. The news amply demonstrates the effect of this on protests and elections. COVID-19 is, bar none, the most severe public health crisis of the past 100 years, has killed more people in the U.S. in nine months than the country lost in combat in any war after 1865, and by the spring will likely exceed the U.S. body count for every war of the 20th century combined. The COVID-19 situation is more extreme an isolation than the London Blitz and it is far more deadly than the Great Depression. We all recognize and excuse the effects of these (and WWII life) in Greatest Generation [God rest their souls], but apparently we can't see what is happening now.
I am concerned that the people who are not affected or claim to be minimally affected may be the ones who have an underlying condition, lack empathy, are extreme introverts, or refuse to understand that people can be depressed, that depression is a real problem, and that "it could be worse" has never been a winning strategy in making people feel better.
Or possibly some respondents are at a stage of life where they do not experience the pressures of maintaining a job or a business, suddenly having to take on big parts of educating children, and not being able to explore the world or learn new things except through books and media that reinforce how unfree the reader/viewer is to pursue normal life while governments and science struggle to get this problem under control.
Dante
It's mind-blowing to me that in a world where (just in the U.S. alone), 3,000 people a day [a daily 9/11 or Pearl Harbor!] are dying of a disease, a couple hundred thousand people are being infected a day, and both commerce and human contact have been severely impacted --
-- that anyone thinks that it's abnormal for people to be down, anxious, upset, or demoralized. The science says it's normal for things like a pandemic to exacerbate people's existing afflictions and to cause new ones. The news amply demonstrates the effect of this on protests and elections. COVID-19 is, bar none, the most severe public health crisis of the past 100 years, has killed more people in the U.S. in nine months than the country lost in combat in any war after 1865, and by the spring will likely exceed the U.S. body count for every war of the 20th century combined. The COVID-19 situation is more extreme an isolation than the London Blitz and it is far more deadly than the Great Depression. We all recognize and excuse the effects of these (and WWII life) in Greatest Generation [God rest their souls], but apparently we can't see what is happening now.
I am concerned that the people who are not affected or claim to be minimally affected may be the ones who have an underlying condition, lack empathy, are extreme introverts, or refuse to understand that people can be depressed, that depression is a real problem, and that "it could be worse" has never been a winning strategy in making people feel better.
Or possibly some respondents are at a stage of life where they do not experience the pressures of maintaining a job or a business, suddenly having to take on big parts of educating children, and not being able to explore the world or learn new things except through books and media that reinforce how unfree the reader/viewer is to pursue normal life while governments and science struggle to get this problem under control.
Dante
gb hill
Veteran
Phil I'm sorry to read of your depression that you are experiencing. Shame shame on those who have not sympathized with the pain you feel right now. In time I believe this will pass.
For me this past year I only wish I had time to slow down & rest. Since Covid my work has only grown busier. I'm in the bulk lubricants business. My wife had breast cancer so it was trips to carrying her to Chemo, trips to other doctors, (she's unable to drive). Plus a trip to spend a week in the hospital because the high doses of Chemo almost killed her. I still remember dropping her off at the hospital's front door because of Covid.
Then in September my son Anthony, two weeks before his 37th birthday who just had a 2 month old daughter was killed in a car accident. So I haven't had time for this pandemic but I do know that it's real. My prayers are with those who have lost loved ones.
I say all of this to you Phil because you are not alone. We all have a story of our lives to tell & we will get through this together.
BTW the good news is my wife is now cancer free.
Cheers, Greg
For me this past year I only wish I had time to slow down & rest. Since Covid my work has only grown busier. I'm in the bulk lubricants business. My wife had breast cancer so it was trips to carrying her to Chemo, trips to other doctors, (she's unable to drive). Plus a trip to spend a week in the hospital because the high doses of Chemo almost killed her. I still remember dropping her off at the hospital's front door because of Covid.
Then in September my son Anthony, two weeks before his 37th birthday who just had a 2 month old daughter was killed in a car accident. So I haven't had time for this pandemic but I do know that it's real. My prayers are with those who have lost loved ones.
I say all of this to you Phil because you are not alone. We all have a story of our lives to tell & we will get through this together.
BTW the good news is my wife is now cancer free.
Cheers, Greg
Greg, I am so sorry to hear about your son. I lost my Brother in a car crash the weekend that Nikki was born, 22 years ago. Good news on your wife beating the cancer. We went through medical hell with Nikki when she was a toddler. We still deal with the aftermath.
I count ourselves to be better off than most. Can work at home, get things done, and bring in projects to support several other people.
The question should not be "How do I get through this", but "How do we get through this".
My dad specialized in suicide prevention. Many intervention hotlines were setup from his thesis. At age 11 (1969) , I answered the phone and it was for Dad. Turns out the guy had the phone in one hand and a gun in the other. My Dad talked him through it, I just watched and listened.
I count ourselves to be better off than most. Can work at home, get things done, and bring in projects to support several other people.
The question should not be "How do I get through this", but "How do we get through this".
My dad specialized in suicide prevention. Many intervention hotlines were setup from his thesis. At age 11 (1969) , I answered the phone and it was for Dad. Turns out the guy had the phone in one hand and a gun in the other. My Dad talked him through it, I just watched and listened.
No, my point is that depression is real and some people choose death as a way to make it go away. I took your use of quotes to mean that depression isn't a real problem.
KM-25
Well-known
Without question a tough thread to read and all too real, people reaching out from their own desert island calling out for something good, something warm in an ocean of callous and cold uncertainty.
We humans live in the cadence of human time, we are not very good at geologic time and all the others that parade around us. So we do not live selfless proactive lives but seemingly innocently selfish and reactive ones.
So now here we are...it’s happening and the first great test of humanity’s opportunity to re-imagine what is truly important is being met with chaos and failure. For we have not one but two climate changes going on at once, the ecological one and the social one. They are inextricably linked, ecology and equality beget economy, there is simply no inverse to this equation.
Barreling towards a global population of nearly 8 billion people, the world, our air, land, water, people and our hope is aflame. COVID 19 is not a once in a century calamity, it is what will become the new normal of we do not wake the hell up and collectively work towards a clean, safe, fair and decent future.
What Phil has done is a very good thing, he has come forward and shared his pain and it changes how we all act and do things, to second guess a brash reaction, to answer more honestly when someone asks how we are doing.
We must embrace the opportunity to change how we stigmatize depression and mental health and treat it for what it is and that is an epidemic tied directly to ecological and social collapse that is propagating the loss of hope.
If hindsight is 2020, then how do we live that ideal in going forward to reimagine what is important and to manage expectations accordingly?
The world writ large can and will reject our form of life if we do not clean up our act, what is going on right now is all anyone should need to know that it is long overdue that we wake up to that fact and change the way we do things...quickly.
We humans live in the cadence of human time, we are not very good at geologic time and all the others that parade around us. So we do not live selfless proactive lives but seemingly innocently selfish and reactive ones.
So now here we are...it’s happening and the first great test of humanity’s opportunity to re-imagine what is truly important is being met with chaos and failure. For we have not one but two climate changes going on at once, the ecological one and the social one. They are inextricably linked, ecology and equality beget economy, there is simply no inverse to this equation.
Barreling towards a global population of nearly 8 billion people, the world, our air, land, water, people and our hope is aflame. COVID 19 is not a once in a century calamity, it is what will become the new normal of we do not wake the hell up and collectively work towards a clean, safe, fair and decent future.
What Phil has done is a very good thing, he has come forward and shared his pain and it changes how we all act and do things, to second guess a brash reaction, to answer more honestly when someone asks how we are doing.
We must embrace the opportunity to change how we stigmatize depression and mental health and treat it for what it is and that is an epidemic tied directly to ecological and social collapse that is propagating the loss of hope.
If hindsight is 2020, then how do we live that ideal in going forward to reimagine what is important and to manage expectations accordingly?
The world writ large can and will reject our form of life if we do not clean up our act, what is going on right now is all anyone should need to know that it is long overdue that we wake up to that fact and change the way we do things...quickly.
PRJ
Another Day in Paradise
I know how you are feeling Phil. Things are pretty miserable right now, but you gotta keep on moving.
Someone told me when I was young that I need to worry about the things I can control (myself), not the things I can't (everything else). We have a choice on how we behave and react to things. I look around and see all the chaos right now. Politcal chaos, health chaos, economic chaos. World is pretty messed up right now. What can I do about it all? Nothing. Just keep living. Doing things I enjoy. When this whole thing started I didn't think I was even going to be able to do any photography. But I kept doing it. Not the way I did before, but it feels good to just do it.
I guess what I am trying to say is put one foot in front of the other. Get doing the things you enjoy doing. Don't just sit around and wallow in it. You'll start feeling better when you decide you want to start feeling better.
Hope that helps you....
Someone told me when I was young that I need to worry about the things I can control (myself), not the things I can't (everything else). We have a choice on how we behave and react to things. I look around and see all the chaos right now. Politcal chaos, health chaos, economic chaos. World is pretty messed up right now. What can I do about it all? Nothing. Just keep living. Doing things I enjoy. When this whole thing started I didn't think I was even going to be able to do any photography. But I kept doing it. Not the way I did before, but it feels good to just do it.
I guess what I am trying to say is put one foot in front of the other. Get doing the things you enjoy doing. Don't just sit around and wallow in it. You'll start feeling better when you decide you want to start feeling better.
Hope that helps you....
oftheherd
Veteran
Shame, yes perhaps, except I suspect some if not all also have their own sadness that is difficult to deal with. They may not be able to cope any other way than to try to project a false sense of strength. Nothing I can personally do except pray for them
Trying to help a loved one such as a wife to cope and survive can be so draining. Actually losing a loved one takes so much time to recover from. One can go through such a range of emotions, often a roller coaster of negative and uplifting emotions. I salute your strength sir.
gb hill
Veteran
Thanks to all the kind words & PM's on the loss of our son. I don't mean to take anything away from Phil"s thread. It's good to read of all the positive responses.
Beemermark
Veteran
I read this and I can only think you're young. In a year your life will be on course again. You're not like your patients or even me, late in life trying to enjoy the few years left and now stuck at home, deprived of church, friends, and family.
Benjamin Marks
Veteran
That sounds tough, Mark, a lot like what my wife's parents are going through. I think each of is going through a version of that one way or another. But we were all young once too, with specific plans and ambitions. My daughter, for instance, is having her entire college experience altered by the fact of the virus, including lock-downs in her dorm room -- not at all what she signed up for. And graduating into the current economic climate is no picnic, regardless of our older, perhaps wiser, sense that these things are cyclical. My sense is that if we can hold out a little longer, through spring to early summer, that things for all of us will markedly improve.
Just to make this photographic, for a moment: You know, I always looked at the WPA photographers' work with a sense that their subject was ancient history. But if I look at the Migrant Mother's face, I see something of the despair that comes from having only a limited number of options and an uncertain future. Well those times have come again, in a way, and I am confident that we will weather the storm. But many of us, particularly the young, are going to need that longer term perspective that only the more experienced among us can bring in order to shoulder through the next six months.
Just to make this photographic, for a moment: You know, I always looked at the WPA photographers' work with a sense that their subject was ancient history. But if I look at the Migrant Mother's face, I see something of the despair that comes from having only a limited number of options and an uncertain future. Well those times have come again, in a way, and I am confident that we will weather the storm. But many of us, particularly the young, are going to need that longer term perspective that only the more experienced among us can bring in order to shoulder through the next six months.
daveoo
Established
Hang in there Phil and everyone here, we need each other.
I have said many times “If I think of and help others I will fret about myself less.” But with depression one lives in a different world and the tank has little left. This is a different paradigm. Depression runs in my family.
Move, talk, engage and seek help as others have said here. This thread is an important discussion for us on RFF and applies to society as a whole. Thanks for opening this discussion Phil. Medscape addresses the difficulties medical workers are having in this time of Covid 19. Might be worth a look if not tried already. And yet at this time possibly the best resource is each other.
My role this year has been to intubate sick Covid patients, place labor epidurals in Covid parturients and continue to care for non-Covid patients in the OR, L&D and other hospital locations. Lots of juggling done every day. I think I am a piece of the puzzle and a part of the greater whole.
There is depression about and in medicine many tanks are empty. What we have left is "Our" tank. I think we can get through this pandemic and learn a lot.
It is sad to really look at a patient needing intubation because of Covid, it is too late to interact with them. All I can think of is to say a prayer. Each life lost is precious to someone and they often cannot be near. It is not motivating to hear someone compartmentalize by saying “It is just mostly old people that are dying.”
Because, I hope health care workers will still want to do the work of their profession after the pandemic. I hope there is help for them now and after the crisis. I hear “Don’t call us hero’s because I am just a regular human with 'not' an endless tank.” Wherever there are endless waves of incoming patients staffing is short and tattered. After this is over I hope many will be comforted by the reassurance that their work was noble. And they must not be drug down by the thought of “I wish I could have done more.”
And yet beyond the suffering patients and families and beyond frazzled health care workers there is trauma that is just as significant for many people. How do you balance one sector of society vs another? The only answer I can think of is the much repeated phrase “Let’s do this together.” Let's lean on each other.
I would say RFF members who speak up here are greatly on the supportive side, better than society on the average.
Phil, even if you need a break from RFF please don't isolate.
I have said many times “If I think of and help others I will fret about myself less.” But with depression one lives in a different world and the tank has little left. This is a different paradigm. Depression runs in my family.
Move, talk, engage and seek help as others have said here. This thread is an important discussion for us on RFF and applies to society as a whole. Thanks for opening this discussion Phil. Medscape addresses the difficulties medical workers are having in this time of Covid 19. Might be worth a look if not tried already. And yet at this time possibly the best resource is each other.
My role this year has been to intubate sick Covid patients, place labor epidurals in Covid parturients and continue to care for non-Covid patients in the OR, L&D and other hospital locations. Lots of juggling done every day. I think I am a piece of the puzzle and a part of the greater whole.
There is depression about and in medicine many tanks are empty. What we have left is "Our" tank. I think we can get through this pandemic and learn a lot.
It is sad to really look at a patient needing intubation because of Covid, it is too late to interact with them. All I can think of is to say a prayer. Each life lost is precious to someone and they often cannot be near. It is not motivating to hear someone compartmentalize by saying “It is just mostly old people that are dying.”
Because, I hope health care workers will still want to do the work of their profession after the pandemic. I hope there is help for them now and after the crisis. I hear “Don’t call us hero’s because I am just a regular human with 'not' an endless tank.” Wherever there are endless waves of incoming patients staffing is short and tattered. After this is over I hope many will be comforted by the reassurance that their work was noble. And they must not be drug down by the thought of “I wish I could have done more.”
And yet beyond the suffering patients and families and beyond frazzled health care workers there is trauma that is just as significant for many people. How do you balance one sector of society vs another? The only answer I can think of is the much repeated phrase “Let’s do this together.” Let's lean on each other.
I would say RFF members who speak up here are greatly on the supportive side, better than society on the average.
Phil, even if you need a break from RFF please don't isolate.
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skucera
Well-known
Phil, stress and isolation are hard on all of us. They're harder on those who are passionate about what they do, and isolation is harder on extroverts. It sounds like you're missing interpersonal interactions that you don't have now. It's good that you're reaching out for help, because we shouldn't be left alone to stew in our own juices.
Please reach out to your co-workers, who are undoubtedly going through the same thing you are. You can help one another. Remember that men and women overcome stress in different ways. While women gain great relief by discussing problems with one another, men often get more relief and healing by getting to work, and discussing work problems with one another. When you get the larger stressful issues under emotional control, you may well find you're interested in artistic outlets again. Don't get rid of your camera gear at this stressful time... just wait.
Also, remember that mental health care professionals are under great emotional demands even in the best of times. If you see yourself sliding into a dark place, please remember to not look for permanent solutions to temporary problems. If you need counseling, please seek help. Professionals are not above the need for help sometimes.
I hope you find yourself in a better place soon.
Scott
Please reach out to your co-workers, who are undoubtedly going through the same thing you are. You can help one another. Remember that men and women overcome stress in different ways. While women gain great relief by discussing problems with one another, men often get more relief and healing by getting to work, and discussing work problems with one another. When you get the larger stressful issues under emotional control, you may well find you're interested in artistic outlets again. Don't get rid of your camera gear at this stressful time... just wait.
Also, remember that mental health care professionals are under great emotional demands even in the best of times. If you see yourself sliding into a dark place, please remember to not look for permanent solutions to temporary problems. If you need counseling, please seek help. Professionals are not above the need for help sometimes.
I hope you find yourself in a better place soon.
Scott