Kiev: overtensioned shutters from factory ?

[Spyderman]

Today I've done my first replacing of the shutter ribbons on a Kiev.

The procedure itself wasn't that difficult with help of Rick Oleson's tech notes on ribbon replacement and Rich Pinchbeck's Kiev survival site. Thanks guys.


What I noticed after the new ribbons are installed is that the fresh new ribbon is tougher than a ribbon that's been in the camera for a couple of years. It just doesn't work with low spring tension. It needs at least 10 revolutions of the lowere curtain spring.

And so my hypothesis is that the initial tension from the factory which is usually about 10 revolutions is because of the properties of the ribbon when new.

After some time the ribbon becomes softer and works even at lower tension. And that's what we usually do - decrease the tension to make the camera smoother. But it seems impossible with a new ribbon.


So what is your experience with tesioning the shutter after replacing the ribbons ?

 

[acheyj]

Good stuff Ondrej, bet you feel good.
What did you do to seal the ribbon end ?. As I said in a prevoius post model dope hard to get here. Advice from Peter re flame doesnt work for me, my ribbons is not nylon (came from Alex and is genuine). Acetone glue is a bit hard. Best so far for me is nail polish.
Will be doing one when I get back next week, so will compare notes.
Cheers ron

 

[Spyderman]

Thanks. It really does feel good.

I used a contact glue special for shoes. It's transparent and flexible even when it dries, yet it still holds the knot from loosening as well as the loose end of ribbon.

My ribbon is from Alex as well... or from Blyatnikov, I'm not sure, but it's also genuine Arsenal stuff.

 

[ZorkiKat]

Ondrej

I might be doing some ribbon work myself soon. The last of my working Kiev snapped its ribbons last night. This camera worked long enough for just 5 rolls of film. I have some shutter tape from AkiAsahi which is said (per his website description) to work on Contax as well. It's 3mm wide, and quite supple. Got it purposely for Kiev- I don't really need to use it for the Barnack types.

Hows your FED (or was it a Zorki) curtain replacement project?

Jay

 

[Spyderman]

Jay, if the ribbon looks like it would work on Leica then I doubt it would work on Kiev the way it should. Take a look at the Kiev survival site...

 

[ruben]

Today I've done my first replacing of the shutter ribbons on a Kiev.

.............
So what is your experience with tesioning the shutter after replacing the ribbons ?

I have no experience as my ribbons didn't went broken in any of my two Kiev daily users.


BUT... (now a war is going to start 🙂 )

In those two user Kievs, my ribbons are oiled, humid. And the curtains are oiled too by a very bit degree, with the help of a cotton tip and up to the point of avoiding oil may be splashed into the film. What in fact never happened.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Spyderman]

In those two user Kievs, my ribbons are oiled, humid. And the curtains are oiled too by a very bit degree, with the help of a cotton tip and up to the point of avoiding oil may be splashed into the film. What in fact never happened.

Actually I use similar but a less agressive method: I apply PTFE oil from a spray can, and let the solvent evaporate, leaving a layer of PTFE on the ribbons effectively decreasing friction.


But what I was trying to discuss, is
a) whether a brand new ribbon requires slightly higher shutter tension than a old broken-in one
b) whether a) could be the reason that most Kievs come to us with highly overtensioned shutter (near 10 revolutions of the lower curtain spring shaft)

 

[ruben]

...........
But what I was trying to discuss, is
a) whether a brand new ribbon requires slightly higher shutter tension than a old broken-in one
b) whether a) could be the reason that most Kievs come to us with highly overtensioned shutter (near 10 revolutions of the lower curtain spring shaft)

a) It makes sense, common sense.

b) Upon an exchange with a known fixer, he clearly stated that overtensioning any camera is the dirty cheap and quick way to overcome inperfections in the camera adjusting, and dirt.

Has this taken place at Arsenal ? One of the million dollar questions about what the hell was going there. But basing ourselves on the logics of the 2 parallel lines of production, a theory I exposed at the thread "A fantasy speculation...." - this may have been very much the case, when production was running for "the masses" instead of "export" or Politbureau functionaries.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[Spyderman]

Speaking from my own experience:
1) I CLA'd the Kiev, including decreasing the tension from about 10 to 7 revs of the spring
2) The slow speeds wouldn't work reliably... and when changing speeds the ribbon got into the sprocket wheels near the top curtain drum 😱
3) Inspection showed severe damage to the ribbon 🙁
4) I replaced the ribbons, but this time it needs 9 revs to work on the fast speeds 😱 too much friction between the bottom curtain and the ribbon

At the moment the camera is still in partially disassembled state (top off, film gate on) and I'm trying to exercise the shutter and applying the PTFE on the ribbons...

I'll let you know how it's working in the evening when I get home.

 

[ruben]

hi Ondrej,
in case you have respected the correct measures of the new ribbons, you sound very worry and somewhat disgusted. True, passing from a tension of 6,5 to the stifness of a 9 is not a pleasure. But there is a risk that everything is ok, only needing a month or so of use to come back to normal, while on the other hand, out of impatience you may jam the camera.

So unless you really notice strange things beyond stifness, take it cool, give time to time, and be gently with your camera.

Cheers,
Ruben

 

[ruben]

Hi Ondrej,

I have came out with an idea really worth to try.

Buy a parts Kiev from Alex photo goods, and insert in your user, the worn ribbons of Alex parts camera.

As far as my memory goes, for the lowwer drum you will not have to unstich anything but dis-assemble the lower drum and take out the ribbons. As for the upper side of the ribbons catching the upper curtain, you will have to use a magnifying glass to find and cut the stiches, without cutting the ribbons.

Of course that when emailing Alex you MUST specify him that what you really are looking for is the best worn ribbons camera he may have. It is also possible that he will not have a parts camera but a shutter with ribbons, or any other variation.

Alex is extremely serviceable and will do his best, and invoice you pennies.

Cheers,
Ruben