Kodak on 10 Brands that will Disappear in 2010 List

[batterytypehah!]

yes Christopher, i had considered your point about producing paper and then film at a later date, however, do you have a link,or just point in the right direction with a search to find the source of this infomation. I am interested, but he says-she says does`nt cut it anymore. thanx

This has all been discussed recently in the Film forum:
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83737

Long story short, both Fotoimpex and Adox are on the record saying that they're only waiting for old APX stock to sell off. Bill has been very skeptical of these statements and IMO has every right to state his opinion. There's nothing we can do but wait and see.

 

[jwc57]

This has been a great thread and debate.

For the past few weeks, I've been cleaning film cameras and darkroom equipment. I'm introducing traditional black and white photography for our clients that want something unique and one of a kind.....maybe I should say "reintroducing".

Like the return of the vinyl record for audiophiles, black and white film (maybe even some color films) will still be available for some time. Maybe not mass produced, maybe as a specialty item, but it will be around. Heck, go to B&H and you can still purchase photographic emulsion by the pint. There can't be that much of a market for photographic emulsion, but it is still available.

 

[Sparrow]

I wonder why Leica wasn’t on the list too? ...

 

[photogdave]

I don't think anyone would argue that the market for film is declining rapidly. What I can't understand in the abstract is why a savvy businessman would introduce new products into a rapidly declining market? As in, why would anyone want to resurrect Agfa film in any guise?

It's not like companies are still churning out new film cameras. You are pretty much betting your products future on folks using old cameras that are tossed into the trash when they stop working (those of us who play with film cameras at the high end are too limited to be much of a market for film overall). It just sounds more like wishful thinking than good business.

Believe it or not, not all companies are in it just for "good business". Sometimes companies will produce a good out of passion for that type of good. Of course it will need to profit to survive, but not necessarily have to make X millions per quarter etc.

 

[batterytypehah!]

Well, this comparison to vinyl records surfaces every once in a while, but I don't think it's valid. I am no expert in either field, but it's got to be a lot easier to press records than to manufacture film. Once you have a cutting lathe and a press, you're in business to make anything from one to thousands of copies of a record. In a small room, in broad daylight, with a staff of one. That's how Elvis got his first record, remember?

A film plant is an entirely different animal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced that the end of film is imminent. I agree with others above that B&W from a variety of manufacturers will be around for a long time to come. But we'll probably have to say good-bye to today's affordability, selection, innovation and consistently high quality very soon.

 

[sevo]

But, I think there is little argument that film is becoming increasingly invisible in mainstream retail channels in the U.S. New film cameras have been invisible for years now. If someone wants to take up film photography, they need to buy from speciality suppliers.

Absolutely. But from the perspective of a predominantly large and medium format photographer, I fail to see a problem there. None of the films, cameras and lenses I use have been visible in mainstream retail channels ever since I started out about thirty years ago - most cannot even be ordered at the average small town photo store, and given what my aunt (who started as a pro in the early fifties) had to tell, that has never been different.

The notion that something is gone or non-existent once it can't be got from Walmart or a consumer-oriented photo store may be widespread among consumers, but so what? Film has already been dead for years where Joe Average is concerned, but then, he also believes large format to be extinct since the 19th century, if not entirely mythical...

Sevo

 

[bmattock]

I wonder why Leica wasn’t on the list too? ...

Too small to matter.

 

[bmattock]

Absolutely. But from the perspective of a predominantly large and medium format photographer, I fail to see a problem there. None of the films, cameras and lenses I use have been visible in mainstream retail channels ever since I started out about thirty years ago - most cannot even be ordered at the average small town photo store, and given what my aunt (who started as a pro in the early fifties) had to tell, that has never been different.

The notion that something is gone or non-existent once it can't be got from Walmart or a consumer-oriented photo store may be widespread among consumers, but so what? Film has already been dead for years where Joe Average is concerned, but then, he also believes large format to be extinct since the 19th century, if not entirely mythical...

Sevo

It is important because the products produced for consumers allow for cost-efficient similar products to be made for professionals and enthusiasts. Once those efficiencies of scale are lost, the prices will climb, availability will drop, and eventually plants will shut down. A factory is typically designed to operate efficiently within certain parameters in terms of throughput. They don't tend to scale down well - they either run at a certain speed or they shut down. You can't ask workers to come in once a week or so to crank out a small batch of film, and they have to get paid whether they are making 20,000 rolls of film or 200.

 

[Sparrow]

Too small to matter.

sorry, I missed off the little laughing face thingy 😀 < that one

 

[bmattock]

Well, this comparison to vinyl records surfaces every once in a while, but I don't think it's valid. I am no expert in either field, but it's got to be a lot easier to press records than to manufacture film. Once you have a cutting lathe and a press, you're in business to make anything from one to thousands of copies of a record. In a small room, in broad daylight, with a staff of one. That's how Elvis got his first record, remember?

A film plant is an entirely different animal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not convinced that the end of film is imminent. I agree with others above that B&W from a variety of manufacturers will be around for a long time to come. But we'll probably have to say good-bye to today's affordability, selection, innovation and consistently high quality very soon.

You are correct. Several small companies have been created in the past ten years on a shoestring to press LP records. There is a surplus of equipment in serviceable condition on the market, and the main ingredient is vinyl and heat, which is still easily available. No esoteric chemicals, no EPA approvals required (well, not like a chemical company anyway).

 

[jwc57]

Actually, LP and film are brought up regularly because they are so similar.

 

[bmattock]

Actually, LP and film are brought up regularly because they are so similar.

They're not as similar as they seem. The bar to entry to making your own LP records is about 50K USD, as I understand it. And people have done it in their basements and garages. The bar to commercially producing film is a tad higher, and no one will be producing 35mm color print film in their garages.

 

[jwc57]

They're not as similar as they seem. The bar to entry to making your own LP records is about 50K USD, as I understand it. And people have done it in their basements and garages. The bar to commercially producing film is a tad higher, and no one will be producing 35mm color print film in their garages.

Similarly, I can buy emulsion and apply it to anything and put it under the lens of the enlarger.

To press an LP isn't just a matter of heating a lump of plastic (which is EPA regulated by the way) in your garage. That is just the end result of a large process. To get to that point, requires the equipment to etch the master discs etc.

The comparison isn't about manufacturing the product, a point which everyone tends to miss, but the limited commercial appeal. In that regard, LP's and film are, indeed similar, and can be compared apples to apples. Both appeal to discerning people, artists if you will...people who actually can see (or hear) a difference between digital and analog.

 

[bmattock]

Similarly, I can buy emulsion and apply it to anything and put it under the lens of the enlarger.

To press an LP isn't just a matter of heating a lump of plastic (which is EPA regulated by the way) in your garage. That is just the end result of a large process. To get to that point, requires the equipment to etch the master discs etc.

The comparison isn't about manufacturing the product, a point which everyone tends to miss, but the limited commercial appeal. In that regard, LP's and film are, indeed similar, and can be compared apples to apples. Both appeal to discerning people, artists if you will...people who actually can see (or hear) a difference between digital and analog.

OK, fair enough, point well-taken. I was referring to the comparison between the two as potential cottage industries. The perpetual claim heard is that "I'll just start making my own" with regard to film, which they of course will not. They say "But people make LP records!" as if it proved that they could also make 35mm film with the same ease. They cannot.

A retired Kodak engineer has indeed made black and white large format film in his basement, and has taught many people to do the same in seminars. It can be done, and it has been done. That's not a commercial venture, and as far as I know, there is a rather huge hurdle between coating one's own sheet film with liquid emulsion and putting perforated 35mm film in little cartridges. And color is more or less right out.

I can only imagine what film would cost if it came from a couple guys slaving over single rolls of film at home. Couple hundred bucks a roll? I'm sure someone would pay that for it, so perhaps that will happen. I'm not sure if that's really comparable to the resurgence in commercial LP records.

 

[wgerrard]

Well, Bill, Freestyle says it is made in the US. Let's count the US film makers who have B&W film 🙂

True, Pickett, but both of those cans of corn were made in the U.S., too, by the same corporation, but what's inside is not identical. I'm just curious if we know if the film Freestyle sells is identical to Tri-X. Couldn't it be a similar film brewed by Kodak for Freestyle?

 

[Etabeta]

Film will be available in the next one hundred years. And perhaps emulsions will be even better than now. In my opinion, it will be just a matter of price. Probably, we'll have to shop on the web and to pay some more money. Nothing we have to worry about.

 

[jwc57]

I give.

The machines, the silver, aluminum, nickel, vinyl and all the other chemicals that go into making a LP are not comparable to film manufacturing.

If you are interested, go to youtube and "how it is made vinyl records".

 

[Pickett Wilson]

Bill, that would make no economic sense for Kodak, whose existing film sales are heading deeper into the toilet every year.

 

[sevo]

Much less than that, depending on how you want to do it. A lot of Caribbean nations have cottage industries of record manufacture for dance parties... a guy stamps them out literally in the back room of the studio after recording, they get play for a short time and then they're brought back and melted down to become tomorrow's records.

Sort of. Actually all they do are "dub plates" - acetate cuts. This is the technology common in the broadcast and recording industry up to the late fifties when magnetic tape took over, and the same technology that is still used to cut masters for vinyl record pressing - dub plates being the acetates actually used in playback, while vinyl masters are duplicated to metallic matrices in a galvanic process which are then used to cast vinyl.

Acetates need nothing but a acetate recorder (fridge size and not built any more for two decades, but there are enough of them around) and acetate coated disks with a metal core. And when it comes to comparing with film, the latter are of particular interest. The production of acetates is of equivalent complexity as film production, was traditionally done by companies with major stakes in the film industry (e.g. 3M, Dupont and AGFA/BASF here in Europe), and acetate manufacturers still cater to a few thousand users, more than twenty years after it ceased to be mainstream (indeed, you can even buy sizes beyond 12" which haven't been mainstream for 40 years).

Vinyl pressing itself is a variation on pressing/casting plastics parts - a grown industrial process that needs a factory plant at least the size of a big printers workshop, with a minimum of two engineers to manage and control the galvanic process and vinyl presses in addition to the actual workers.

 

[Pickett Wilson]

Etabeta, not only will film be gone in a hundred years, but digital as well. The world as it will exist 100 years from now is beyond our imagination.