wgerrard
Veteran
A lot of the film-will-never-die arguments here boil down to this and the "people like film" argument.
Of course, they have nothing at all to do with Kodak's survival, or even the survival of their film units.
Kodak will close their film lines not when film starts losing money in absolute terms, but when it decides it can make more money by not making film. When that happens many happy film users will still be out there, and their presence won't make a bit of difference.
There are people out there that like Pontiacs, remember.
NickTrop
Veteran
Bill:
Warner Bros. and Sony aren't expected to be on board with the DCIP agreement by the time it's announced. But they likely also will agree to consortium VPFs before long, according to a source familiar with the studio discussions.
DCIP chief and exhibition vet Travis Reid was unavailable for comment. But it's broadly expected that DCIP will announce a deal with the first four major studios sometime before the October 13 start of the ShowEast convention of theater owners in Orlando, Florida.
One lingering concern sure to stimulate lots of talk at the conference is the question of how regional circuits and mom-and-pop exhibs will pay for their digital conversions. Some have suggested that smaller-fry exhibitors could be driven out of business unless they somehow manage to clamber onto the digital bandwagon...
...Regal, in the meantime, spent heavily to install more basic digital projectors to show commercials before feature presentations in its theaters.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE48S0SI20080929
______________________
Yes, no doubt digital distribution is the future, and eventually they'll all be. Similarly, more and more films will be shot with RED ONE. That, imo, will happen before release prints cease. There's no huge conversion cost associated with that. The cost of a RED ONE camera is less than film stock, plus they can be leased, so I'm surprised they're all not shot with RED cameras. However, it's likely that film will exist side-by-side for some time. Ad rev is what's driving the larger chains, so there's you business incentive. (Yeah, I get to pay for a movie and also see ads! Remember the good ole days when they ran a Bugs Bunny cartoon? I hate watching ads before movies start.) Regal is interesting in that they stuck with film projection for now and bought "more basic" (cough...cheaper) digital projectors to run ads. Obviously, that chain wouldn't have stuck with film projection if they thought the conversion would be immediate. Clearly, they're banking on film being around a while: 5-10 years?, or they wouldn't have sunk money into a separate projection system for ads in their theaters.
I don't think: A. that Hollywood will simply concede the market/revenue stream from small markets and independents who can't afford cost per screen to convert... B. Digital has it all over film, at this point, in the actual filmmaking process. It just does. However, major productions have been very slow to adopt. Why? That $300,000 film processing cost is a huge obstacle to small productions. However, it's a drop in the bucket to a production, typical Hollywood, with a budget of 10's - 100's of millions of dollars. It's not worth it to them to experiment with new technologies when that piece of production costs is relativity negligible. And remember, this is a worldwide market. C. Also, cinematographers are used to working with film. They don't want to mess with their workflow and their expertise. Using the medium they have decades worth of experience in, they can get exactly the look they want using the medium they've got decades of experience in.
Will color film die? Of course. But that will likely take a decade. In the meantime, as you point out, film production = cash production. No R&D, fixed costs "paid for", no advertising costs. They do a job run, it sells, they make money. Cash cow. The top-end rev will continue to decline, no surprise.
Now... black and white film. Black and white shooters - a small part of the overall film market, is a different animal completely. Nobody who shoots black and white is dropping their 50 year old cameras because Panasonic just came out with a new micro 3/4th's system. No, this is a hobbyist, enthusiast, education, and fine arts market. Digital will likely drive consumers to black and white as folks go through their "black and white phase" - and some staying there. How big is that market? Dunno. But there is a fair number of suppliers and it coincides, not competes with digital or black and white would have died during the color film era. There are too many suppliers, I think, currently. There will be consolidation. One might be Kodak... but I think black and white will survive as far as the eye can see, ironically outliving color just like vinyl albums may very well outlive CD Roms.
Warner Bros. and Sony aren't expected to be on board with the DCIP agreement by the time it's announced. But they likely also will agree to consortium VPFs before long, according to a source familiar with the studio discussions.
DCIP chief and exhibition vet Travis Reid was unavailable for comment. But it's broadly expected that DCIP will announce a deal with the first four major studios sometime before the October 13 start of the ShowEast convention of theater owners in Orlando, Florida.
One lingering concern sure to stimulate lots of talk at the conference is the question of how regional circuits and mom-and-pop exhibs will pay for their digital conversions. Some have suggested that smaller-fry exhibitors could be driven out of business unless they somehow manage to clamber onto the digital bandwagon...
...Regal, in the meantime, spent heavily to install more basic digital projectors to show commercials before feature presentations in its theaters.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE48S0SI20080929
______________________
Yes, no doubt digital distribution is the future, and eventually they'll all be. Similarly, more and more films will be shot with RED ONE. That, imo, will happen before release prints cease. There's no huge conversion cost associated with that. The cost of a RED ONE camera is less than film stock, plus they can be leased, so I'm surprised they're all not shot with RED cameras. However, it's likely that film will exist side-by-side for some time. Ad rev is what's driving the larger chains, so there's you business incentive. (Yeah, I get to pay for a movie and also see ads! Remember the good ole days when they ran a Bugs Bunny cartoon? I hate watching ads before movies start.) Regal is interesting in that they stuck with film projection for now and bought "more basic" (cough...cheaper) digital projectors to run ads. Obviously, that chain wouldn't have stuck with film projection if they thought the conversion would be immediate. Clearly, they're banking on film being around a while: 5-10 years?, or they wouldn't have sunk money into a separate projection system for ads in their theaters.
I don't think: A. that Hollywood will simply concede the market/revenue stream from small markets and independents who can't afford cost per screen to convert... B. Digital has it all over film, at this point, in the actual filmmaking process. It just does. However, major productions have been very slow to adopt. Why? That $300,000 film processing cost is a huge obstacle to small productions. However, it's a drop in the bucket to a production, typical Hollywood, with a budget of 10's - 100's of millions of dollars. It's not worth it to them to experiment with new technologies when that piece of production costs is relativity negligible. And remember, this is a worldwide market. C. Also, cinematographers are used to working with film. They don't want to mess with their workflow and their expertise. Using the medium they have decades worth of experience in, they can get exactly the look they want using the medium they've got decades of experience in.
Will color film die? Of course. But that will likely take a decade. In the meantime, as you point out, film production = cash production. No R&D, fixed costs "paid for", no advertising costs. They do a job run, it sells, they make money. Cash cow. The top-end rev will continue to decline, no surprise.
Now... black and white film. Black and white shooters - a small part of the overall film market, is a different animal completely. Nobody who shoots black and white is dropping their 50 year old cameras because Panasonic just came out with a new micro 3/4th's system. No, this is a hobbyist, enthusiast, education, and fine arts market. Digital will likely drive consumers to black and white as folks go through their "black and white phase" - and some staying there. How big is that market? Dunno. But there is a fair number of suppliers and it coincides, not competes with digital or black and white would have died during the color film era. There are too many suppliers, I think, currently. There will be consolidation. One might be Kodak... but I think black and white will survive as far as the eye can see, ironically outliving color just like vinyl albums may very well outlive CD Roms.
oftheherd
Veteran
Shhhsshhh!!!
Lomography has built a few stores (including doing film processing now) and toy cameras are coming from many angles and countries. I see these type of places keeping film around for awhile ... more underground and not as mainstream, but available and maybe more expensive as time goes by.
oftheherd
Veteran
I was thinking the same, considering the grammar, formatting and spelling. Not that they may not be correct, but still...
btgc
Veteran
Note - with all-digital movie workflow it will be, no...it may be bigger chances for leaks. In studios, in theaters. But who cares, most of that content isn't worth seeing even for free.
Nikkor AIS
Nikkor AIS
I used to be going in the wrong direction. But in the last three months, I've bought three film cameras and sold my Canon 5D2. I'm keeping my 2 Nikon D3s and D2H
. The thing I want to stress is "shoot film" and support your local labs that still process it. God knows I'm doing my part. Go into your local bricks and mortar camera store with a film camera around your neck and buy film. If they haven't got it, tell them to get off their ass and order it. In the last week I was told by two camera store employees that film is on its way out. I tore a stip off them and basically told them to shut up. Especially since I was holding a $200.00 bag of film bought from the other side of Vistek:bang:. After talking to him a little more, one camera salesperson admitted he wasn't even shooting anymore because he was bored of hanging out with his girlfriend, not lifting weights and was basically living an uninspired life life. To quote him, "I never do anything fun". He admitted that he was jealous of my enthusiasm for shooting and wanted to look through my "new" Leica M7. When I let him that made him smile. I guess what I'm saying is don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Instead, start your own grassroots revolution in shooting more film in your own circle of family and friends. Buy your kids a film camera and teach them to process the negs with you. Even if you scan the negs like me, it's still film. Computer crashes, still got the negs.
"FILM WILL NEVER DIE"
Taken with Leica M3 and 15 Voigt on E6 film cross-processed in C41
Gregory
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nikku
Well-known
Nick, I think that's the most apt analogy anyone has made yet. Vinyl is a niche product for a niche market and can hardly be seen as a money maker, yet it somehow survives, and is usually produced by record companies concurrently with CDs, DVDs, and MP3s.
chris00nj
Young Luddite
Their digital department lost money, plus they lose money on paying interest on their debt and trying to finance a lot of retirment obligations.
If the film division was sold to a seperate group of investors, it wouldn't have all of those issues.
antiquark
Derek Ross
Camera store employees are so clueless sometimes. I was once told by an employee that their store probably didn't stock the Nikkor 35/2 AFD because it was a "film lens," and film will be obsolete soon! (Never mind that it works for any DX or FX digital Nikon.)
I was so put off by that exchange that I actually ordered the lens online from another store! Sheesh, "film lens..."
x-ray
Veteran
Yes it will and Efke, Adox, Agfa (it's coming back), Foma, Forte (it's coming back too) and a couple of Chinese companies too. These smaller companies are making very fine film now and producing some of the 40's-50's emulsions again that have that beautiful rich tonality that we've gotten away from. Outside of Kodak we have a better selection of B&W film and fine B&W papers than we've had in decades. The little companies like Efke/ Adox and Foma don't have to make 400M a year to keep running. The void left in the market if Kodak bites the bullet will insure the success of these smaller companies for many years. Kodak might go away but film will not for decades. Kodak has been on life support since Fuji came into the US. Kodak simply can not adjust to not being the king of photography and if they can't own 90% of the market they dump it and they no longer own the film / photo market. Looking back forty years at all the film and paper Kodak has discontinued is just staggering. Kodak made dozens of B&W emulsions when I got into photography fifty years ago. They made a dozen or more different papers and that many more surfaces. Dupont was big in the film and paper market as well as Ansco and then GAF. The world of photography won't die even if Kodak does.
scottgee1
RF renegade
bmattock
Veteran
scottgee1
RF renegade
Forward into the past!
Forward into the past!
Wouldn't it be interesting if those who want to shoot something other than digital ended up having to return to a version of the wet plate process?
Forward into the past!
Wouldn't it be interesting if those who want to shoot something other than digital ended up having to return to a version of the wet plate process?
jorgef2002
Established
Freestyle Photographic Supplies is selling Kodak tri x under their own brand, and they have no intention of stopping,an excellent company.
jorgef2002
jorgef2002
Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
charming little story! - thanks!.....and I was wondering what a trio of old cameras - on a pile of film boxes might look like!
I used to be going in the wrong direction. But in the last three months, I've bought three film cameras and sold my Canon 5D2. I'm keeping my 2 Nikon D3s and D2H
I guess what I'm saying is don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Instead, start your own grassroots revolution in shooting more film in your own circle of family and friends. Buy your kids a film camera and teach them to process the negs with you. Even if you scan the negs like me, it's still film. Computer crashes, still got the negs.
"FILM WILL NEVER DIE"
Taken with Leica M3 and 15 Voigt on E6 film cross processed in C41
Gregory
- but the 'Lunar landscape'....mmmm.Nikkor AIS
Nikkor AIS
Taken with Lecia M7 and 15 Voit on XP2
I like the funky colors and wacky saturation you get from cross processing E6/C41 but I get its not everyones cup of tea.
This one was taken with the Lecia M6 and 50 1.0 Noctilux @ F8/11 on XP2
"Film will never die"
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Jamie123
Veteran
Personally, I don't buy film to 'support' Kodak or any other company. For charity I prefer giving money to the red cross or similar organisations.
I buy and use film because I need it in order to achieve my desired results. If I could get the same results I get with medium format film with my 5DII I'd stop using film tomorrow. Film is expensive to buy, processing is expensive and scanning is a pain. If it weren't for the superior results I would not bother. I think the day we have to force ourselves to buy film in order to keep it alive is the day it will die.
I buy and use film because I need it in order to achieve my desired results. If I could get the same results I get with medium format film with my 5DII I'd stop using film tomorrow. Film is expensive to buy, processing is expensive and scanning is a pain. If it weren't for the superior results I would not bother. I think the day we have to force ourselves to buy film in order to keep it alive is the day it will die.
Jamie123
Veteran
@Nikkor AIS: Is this the "show me your completely irrelevant photos" thread or are you trying to make a case against film? I'm not trying to be rude but there are other threads where you can showcase your work.
x-ray
Veteran
Bill I guess I should have checked with you first. You seem to know everything.
I've read articles recently say they are coming back. Time will tell won't it?