HHPhoto
Well-known
Hello Bill,
then it is time tow for you to admit your wrongness concerning Agfa....
.In fact, lots of your statements were wrong.
You said that there is no new film coating plant. That is wrong. There is a complete new, modern emulsioning and coating plant in Monheim, Germany.
They started production last year.
This company is 'InovisCoat', www.inoviscoat.de
InovisCoat was founded by former Agfa Leverkusen/Germany employees. All InovisCoat employees are former Agfa engineers and technicians.
InovisCoat bought the Coating machine 'K' from the AgfaPhoto insolvency, scaled it down and modernized it, moved with it from Leverkusen to Monheim and started production in April 2009. In a complete new, modern plant.
Former AgfaPhoto in Leverkusen had two big coating machines, one of them was bought by InovisCoat.
By the way, the other machine was not bought by the Koreans as you said. They bought a machine for making film base material (Triazetat), not a coating machine.
The coating machine at InovisCoat is now called "Phönix", and they can coat lots of different materials with it. Currently they are making BW paper, color negative paper and BW films. They are making both the MCC and the MCP paper for Adox/Fotoimpex. Adox has no own coating capabilities, InovisCoat is doing it for them (but Adox is currently building up a slitting and packaging facility http://www.adoxfotowerke.de/Manufaktur/Foto-Manufaktur.html ).
And they have done first test runs of APX 400 emulsions. It is planned to offer the market this old Agfa emulsion as Adox AP 400 this year. APX 100 will follow next year as Adox AP 100.
And InovisCoat is also running some coatings for the second german film manufacturer Filmotec www.filmotec.de
Filmotec has made the Rollei Pan 25 (sold also under label Adox Pan 25) and Rollei Ortho 25 (sold also under label Adox Ortho 25).
So yes, there is a kind of new Agfa: The former Agfa (Leverkusen) engineers with their new company InovisCoat. Agfa stuff, Agfa coating machine, Agfa paper (MCC, MCP, sold as Adox) and Agfa film (APX 100&400, sold as Adox).
And there is even more, a kind of second revival of original Agfa film from Agfa-Gevaert in Belgium (www.agfa.com). They are still in business and producing lots of color negative, slide and BW films (by the way, much higher BW film volumes than Ilford).
By the cooperation of Agfa-Gevaert with Maco Photo Products in Germany (brand Rollei-Film) the market for 'normal' photographers has now much more Agfa film options than ever in history:
Agfa Copex Rapid (=Spur DSX 64)
Rollei ATP
Rollei Retro 80S (Agfa Aviphot Pan 80)
Rollei Superpan 200 (Agfa Aviphot Pan 200)
Rollei Retro 400S (Agfa Aviphot Pan 400)
Rollei IR (Agfa Aviphot Pan 400)
Forget the AgfaPhoto Holding and their distributor Lupus Imaging. They rape the name AgfaPhoto. It is just relabelling: The AgfaPhoto color negative films are from Ferrania, the color slide film Precisa is from Kodak (Elitechrome 100), and APX 100 and 400 is old stock from the last production run in Leverkusen.
The photo film market in general: It is not as bad as some say. Not all film types have decreasing rates of 30% a year. That is only cheap consumer color negative film.
I have talked with all the film manufacturers at last Photokina. All of them said that BW film has stabilised, decreasing of sales numbers is already stopped. Kodak said their BW film sales had an increase by 8%.
The decrease of professional film (CN and Slide) is slowing down, some film types have already stabilised. LF film has an increase by 30%.
By the way: Do you know the most succesful photo company of the last years?
No, it is not a digital company. It is a company totally dedicated to film, the Lomographic Society in Vienna www.lomography.com
They have growth rates of 50% year by year! Whereas most digital manufacturers are already facing decraesing sales numbers (first signs of market saturation), last year 10-20% less sales at most digital manufacturers.
In the meanwhile lomography has become an established part of photography with over 1 million lomographers worldwide, and the number is rapidly increasing. LSI is opening new lomograpy gallery stores every four months worldwide, the last in London, Rio and Berlin.
They had the most impressive and one of the biggest booths at last Photokina in Cologne. The slogan "the future is analogue" was written in big letters over the booth. They are attracting especially young photographers to film photography.
They sell some of their own special films (slide and redscale films) in 7 (!) digit sales numbers.
Lomography has become a mass market, especially in China where LSI is very engaged and active.
Film will be there for decades to come. We have over 1 billion people taking photographs worldwide, and this number is growing because of the economoc growth in the developing countries. Even if only 1 percent, or even only 0.5 percent of them will use film, it remains a market of several million users worldwide. Enough to keep film alive.
And film will not be much pricier in the future, because it is possible to make film in smaller volumes at reasonable prices: In 2010 photo film sales will be at 20% of the niveau of the record year 1999.
And what happened with prices during this decade? If you consider inflation, film is cheaper now than ten years ago (at least here in Germany
). Cheaper, and the quality is much better due to new emulsion technology.Look at the new Adox MCC and MCP: Produced in much smaller olumes, but no higher prices than the original Agfa paper from 2005.
Or have a look at Foma films: They have only a fraction of the production volumes of Kodak, but the prices are much lower, same with Efke or Lucky films.
And Adox AP 100&400 films will be in the same price range as Agfa APX in 2005. And AP 400 will be produced in extremely small volumes of only 3000m² per year. That is a niche in the niche in the niche production. Yes, now we see that it is possible.
In 1981 the first still video camera was introduced, the Mavica. The "experts" said that till 1990 film will be dead.
I was also on Photokina 2002: All the "experts" say that in 2010 there will no film be available any more, or if then only at outrageous prices.
Now the same people say that in 2015 or 2020 film will be dead. I bet that in 2020 we will be sitting here, with lots of different film types around at reasonable prices, and the same people will say that in 2025 or 2030 film will be dead........
"Same procedure as last year Miss Sophie? Same procedure as every year James...."
Best regards,
Jan
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
HHphoto, who do you represent? I mean, you didn't magically appear here today with your first post a full rebuttal of Bill's conjectures.
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Dave Wilkinson
Veteran
mmmm.....the plot thickens!
bmattock
Veteran
Hello Bill,
then it is time tow for you to admit your wrongness concerning Agfa....
In fact, lots of your statements were wrong.
My statements were based on quotes from reputable news agencies and company news states, which I linked to. If they are wrong, I cannot control that, but it's the best information I could find. None of the information you have given has appeared in news articles that I could find, so I'd appreciate any links you have to such information.
As to my eating crow, I'm still happy to do so. Show me a roll of commercially-sold Agfa APX newly-manufactured and I'll step right up. Until then, although I am perfectly willing to believe your detailed statements, those are all I have to go on, and that's not enough for me to engage in bird-ingesting.
Sparrow
Veteran
I won’t say I told you so, yet … but if true … I did
HHPhoto
Well-known
Dear Pickett,
I represent myself, I am only a photographer.
I am reading here for some time. I have registered today because I see that a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding is gathering around concerning what is going on here in Germany (Agfa and so on).
All news and facts I have written about are publicly available here in Germany. Official statements by manufacturers, distributors, market research companies, reports in magazines, newspapers etc.. And I have talked directly to manufacturers at the last Photokinas in Cologne, Germany. Besides I have some good contacts by a friend working in the photo industry. That's all.
Best regards,
Jan
bmattock
Veteran
Some links to news items would be nice. Otherwise, it is just talk. Nice talk, and possibly accurate talk, but still talk.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Sometimes stuff on the Intrawebs is just "stuff".
People sometimes (and often) take Wikipedia as gospel - well, lemme tell you; my cousin has schizophrenia and was "hospitalized" a year or so ago for quite some time because of it. She was allowed, by hospital staff, (as were other patients) to use the hospital computers for web/internet access.
Knowing that anyone can update Wikipedia and knowing that, at least one, hospitals allow patients (including those with mental illness) to garner access to online resources, I find it difficult to really take a lot of things as "God's honest truth" without seeing these things or having corroborating stories from different/independent/verified sources.
Cheers,
Dave
People sometimes (and often) take Wikipedia as gospel - well, lemme tell you; my cousin has schizophrenia and was "hospitalized" a year or so ago for quite some time because of it. She was allowed, by hospital staff, (as were other patients) to use the hospital computers for web/internet access.
Knowing that anyone can update Wikipedia and knowing that, at least one, hospitals allow patients (including those with mental illness) to garner access to online resources, I find it difficult to really take a lot of things as "God's honest truth" without seeing these things or having corroborating stories from different/independent/verified sources.
Cheers,
Dave
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jan,
I think we have been talking to the same people.
See you (and Mirko?) at photokina?
Cheers,
R.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
HHPhoto, not questioning your information. You seem unusually well informed about Agfa for a "just a photographer."
HHPhoto
Well-known
Dear Bill, I am a bit in a hurry, starting a journey.
I have already given you some links.
First have a look at www.inoviscoat.de
Then the whole Agfa / Adox topic is discussed in many, many threads during the last two years at
http://www.fotolaborforum.eu/
www.sw-magazin.de
www.aphog.de
http://www.aphog.de/forum/index.php
http://www.aphog.de/index.php?option=com_alphacontent&Itemid=157&alpha=p§ion=all&cat=all
Look at statements of Mirko Boedecker, Wolfgang Moersch, Sebastian Junghans, Hartmuth Schroeder.concerning Agfa / Adox film and paper and Filmotec.
These persons are involved in these new developments.
Hope this helps. Wish you a nice weekend.
Best regards,
Jan
jack palmer
Well-known
Ummm, sounds like more than talk to me. The statements by Jan would be pretty difficult to conjure out of thin air and pretty creative too. Can't wait to hear more.
grainhound
Well-known
This thread is quite a long discussion of whether.
In the world we inhabit, meteorologists with university degrees analyse data on powerful computers, data collected from multiple sources which measure an impressive array of atmospheric variables.
I hear they sometimes make incorrect forecasts.
In the world we inhabit, meteorologists with university degrees analyse data on powerful computers, data collected from multiple sources which measure an impressive array of atmospheric variables.
I hear they sometimes make incorrect forecasts.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi, Well, that's true but (and it's a great big "but" coming) writing down what people say and publishing it in a paper won't make it more true or less true. And people talking to people aren't looking over their shoulders at the advertising dept...
And there's still a lot of other film makers not been mentioned in these posts. They could be rubbing their hands as I type at the thought of all that trade coming to them.
Regards, David
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
How many distinct companies actually make film. Anyone know?
bmattock
Veteran
Let's see them.
bmattock
Veteran
I've posted a list now and again. Of the top of my head:
Biggies:
Kodak, Fuji, Ilford.
Less known but still manufacturing:
Ferrania, FOMA, Efke
Possibly still making film, possibly not (much debate from people who think if you can still buy it and it has a future expiration date, it is therefore still being manufactured):
Lucky, Shantou ERA, Shanghai
Unknown status (some people say Bergger makes their own film, hmm, maybe; others claim Tasma and Svema are still manufacturing film, but I can't get any contacts with the companies themselves, they ignore email and I've even tried to call)
Bergger, Tasma, Svema
Imaginary film manufacturers (meaning they 'produce' film, they don't make it):
Rollei, Adox, Orwo, Adox Canada, Maco, AgfaPhoto
Makes film, but only for repackaging use by others:
Agfa Gavaert
For color print film there is only Kodak, Fuji, and Ferrania remaining that I am aware of. The rest are B&W.
Pickett Wilson
Veteran
I would think there are fewer than 10 companies in the world making consumer photographic film. Probably half that many.
bmattock
Veteran
I can't wait to SEE more. Lots of people make lots of statements. I have only posted my own opinions based on what news items I could find. If the truth is otherwise, that's great news - so let's see the products. I hear a lot about how so-and-so is about to come roaring back to life with this or that excellent photographic product any old day now. Some do, most don't. Let's see the products.
bmattock
Veteran
For consumer film that one would see in the average retail outlet in the US, there is only Kodak and Fuji, with Ferrania possibly disguised amongst 'store brand' films here and there. All the others would be found in a camera store in larger cities, or online. Most typical consumers in the USA would not even know they exist.