menos
Veteran
After shooting entirely SLR cameras and digital PS, I bought my very first Leica RF yesterday together with a 35 f2 ASPH.
I don't feel well, to start my first post here on the forum with an unpleasant topic, but I think, I might get some help with this issue in the form of some information.
I bought the camera (1992 silver M6 0.72) together with the 35 Summicron and in my excitement overlooked one of the most obvious and horrendous faults, one should see on an instant.
The rear element of the lens is damaged in a way, that looks like damage due to physical violence as seen in the photos.
There seem to be no marks of impact on the outer elements of the lens, which is, why I didn't recognize it in the first place.
This is a failure, the seller definetely knew, as he inspects his goods. He sold me the lens with knowledge and without informing me about the fault.
I feel, that I need to bring the camera and lens back.
I paid 1200,- EUR for the lens. Is this a price, were a repair might be reasonable (with further discount from the shop)?
What would you do?
He sells also a black 50 1.4 ASPH, which he offered for 1650,- EUR.
Would this price make sense, to exchange the 35 for and pay the difference?
Another option for a first lens would be a slightly used looking Voigtlander 35 2.5 color skopar for 250,- EUR or a beat up, brassed looking 50 1.1 Voigtlander Nokton for 550,- EUR.
I feel a bit lost, as I was so blended, to overlook such issues.
After handling the Leica yesterday evening and shooting a few rolls for testing, I really NEED to have a working M6 with one nice lens now (I think, you understand this).
I don't feel well, to start my first post here on the forum with an unpleasant topic, but I think, I might get some help with this issue in the form of some information.
I bought the camera (1992 silver M6 0.72) together with the 35 Summicron and in my excitement overlooked one of the most obvious and horrendous faults, one should see on an instant.
The rear element of the lens is damaged in a way, that looks like damage due to physical violence as seen in the photos.
There seem to be no marks of impact on the outer elements of the lens, which is, why I didn't recognize it in the first place.
This is a failure, the seller definetely knew, as he inspects his goods. He sold me the lens with knowledge and without informing me about the fault.
I feel, that I need to bring the camera and lens back.
I paid 1200,- EUR for the lens. Is this a price, were a repair might be reasonable (with further discount from the shop)?
What would you do?
He sells also a black 50 1.4 ASPH, which he offered for 1650,- EUR.
Would this price make sense, to exchange the 35 for and pay the difference?
Another option for a first lens would be a slightly used looking Voigtlander 35 2.5 color skopar for 250,- EUR or a beat up, brassed looking 50 1.1 Voigtlander Nokton for 550,- EUR.
I feel a bit lost, as I was so blended, to overlook such issues.
After handling the Leica yesterday evening and shooting a few rolls for testing, I really NEED to have a working M6 with one nice lens now (I think, you understand this).
Last edited:
arseniii
Well-known
Return the lens! That is kind of a damage that will be hell of expensive to fix! Even if it doesn't effect the performance (which I seriously doubt) you will loose money on resale... Good luck and stay calm - everything's gonna be alright!
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Yeah, just get a full refund. that damage is major and will affect pictures, and the price you paid is enough to buy one in good condition.
Turtle
Veteran
Wow. Go back to the shop and get a refund. Yes, it could be repaired but will be expensive.
elshaneo
Panographer
Return the lens and get another one. With this kind of damage, it's certainly not worth 1200 Euros. And the repair cost will be quite expensive I'm sure.
The worst thing that can happen now is that the seller won't take it back and accusing You of damaging the lens instead. I would personally recommend you not to deal with this seller again.
The worst thing that can happen now is that the seller won't take it back and accusing You of damaging the lens instead. I would personally recommend you not to deal with this seller again.
menos
Veteran
Thank you for the advise. My blood pressure slightly goes back to normal.
I will go by the shop this evening.
I will have the test film scans delivered also this afternoon.
I will see, how it turns out, to speak about the situation with the dealer.
For the interest - how is such a damage produced? I can see no impact marks on the lens.
I will go by the shop this evening.
I will have the test film scans delivered also this afternoon.
I will see, how it turns out, to speak about the situation with the dealer.
For the interest - how is such a damage produced? I can see no impact marks on the lens.
Chriscrawfordphoto
Real Men Shoot Film.
Probably the lens was dropped and it hit on the glass. I actually did that once with an Olympus 50mm f1.4 lens for the OM system, about a year after I bought it! It didn't drop far, a few inches. I was sitting on the sidewalk changing lenses and it slipped from my hand and hit the pavement on the rear element.
Debusti Paolo
Well-known
send it back and pick up the 50 asph !!!Then change shop!!!
ChrisN
Striving
Agree with the advice to return your lens for a refund. That said, the damage will probably have little effect on the images. However, the value of the lens with this damage is greatly reduced.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
might have been over-tightened on assembly or repair, or too tight a fit when inserting the element
dfoo
Well-known
I doubt that damage will affect the IQ. That being said, I would return the lens, or at least get a significant discount!
dimitris
Established
I am very interested about how this ended. Please let us know.
menos
Veteran
Wow, what a friendly and quick response!
Thank you all very, very much for your advises and insight of the possible cause of the damage.
As described, I got the (low res) film scans from the test film back this afternoon and my stomach sank even further, when culling through the 36 frames.
I shot the film after I have found the damage and therefore tried all different kind of lighting situations from wide open to completely stopped down with even and contrasty scenes at minimum and ∞ focus.
The image quality was pretty much destroyed, with most of the images showing a very strong light ghost across the top left quarter of the image.
I will prepare a more detailed blog entry on my website with sample photos and story about the issue, as soon, as some points on my high priority list are clicked (first try with developing TX400 and TMX400, shoot lot's and lot's of rolls with my first RF/ Leica, collect some dust on my Nikons, sell some more unused lenses, sell my compact cameras, look for a second black Leica body - a TTL preferably, look for a nice 35 or even some Voigtlander UWA with finder, find a nice finder, that is also compatible with my Ricoh GRDs, scan the BW film from the long waiting list - can't find the scanner anymore under the huge pile of negatives, go to work in time without oversleeping from too much hobby photography,… ).
So anyway - here follows, what happened today:
- have seen scans from broken 35 Summicron - lens failed
- contacted translator for appointment with shop owner - date set, stomach better
- met shop owner with translator (she is veeery diplomatic and negotiating smart - I have a big stone in my throat and a slightly aggressive feeling - better not say a word).
- first reaction: can not see the damage
- second reaction after further scrutinizing and discussions: didn't know about, when selling the item
- third reaction after admitting, there is a factual damage on the item: this will not harm the image quality, I should not mind - shop owner goes for a Leica M8 from another shop, to "deliver evidence"
- evidence could not be delivered, I advised on the test film, I shot and asked friendly, if we really have to see my scans, I had on my notebook with me (came directly from the office)
- no further negotiations needed - ships were sinking for the shop owner
- after negotiations (another 10 minutes, diplomacy of the skilled translator), the shop owner proposes, to write me a receipt over the exchange of the damaged lens for a good item, he might get in stock in the future - I do not agree
- a full return of the lens has been agreed (diminishing the full discount, that has been negotiated yesterday)
- I pointed out, I need a working lens (I knew only the two used, overpriced Voigtlanders from the other dealers, the black 50 lux or a few chrome lenses from him)
- we negotiated a buy of the 50 1.4 lux ASPH with written full return within 1 week and repair service for 1 year (the repair service is unpleasant, as he ships the item to Japan for repairing)
End of story:
i ended up with a likely good body (M6 classic, chrome in good condition - no visible damage or scratches and obviously good working order) and a 50 1.4 ASPH Summilux (not coded).
The serial points to a 2005 production date with a used price of aprox. 1700 EUR.
I will further investigate the status of the camera and lens and will prevent the dealer in the future, as I have not enough Leica experience, to match the trickery.
Does anyone know about serial no tweaking on a M6 body and especially the 50 lux ASPH?
Is there a good guide, to identify the lens for sure?
All in all, my very first Leica story hopefully has been ended with a scratch, some valuable experience and a tool, I will hopefully grow into using properly.
I am off for some shooting now.
Thank you all very, very much for your advises and insight of the possible cause of the damage.
As described, I got the (low res) film scans from the test film back this afternoon and my stomach sank even further, when culling through the 36 frames.
I shot the film after I have found the damage and therefore tried all different kind of lighting situations from wide open to completely stopped down with even and contrasty scenes at minimum and ∞ focus.
The image quality was pretty much destroyed, with most of the images showing a very strong light ghost across the top left quarter of the image.
I will prepare a more detailed blog entry on my website with sample photos and story about the issue, as soon, as some points on my high priority list are clicked (first try with developing TX400 and TMX400, shoot lot's and lot's of rolls with my first RF/ Leica, collect some dust on my Nikons, sell some more unused lenses, sell my compact cameras, look for a second black Leica body - a TTL preferably, look for a nice 35 or even some Voigtlander UWA with finder, find a nice finder, that is also compatible with my Ricoh GRDs, scan the BW film from the long waiting list - can't find the scanner anymore under the huge pile of negatives, go to work in time without oversleeping from too much hobby photography,… ).
So anyway - here follows, what happened today:
- have seen scans from broken 35 Summicron - lens failed
- contacted translator for appointment with shop owner - date set, stomach better
- met shop owner with translator (she is veeery diplomatic and negotiating smart - I have a big stone in my throat and a slightly aggressive feeling - better not say a word).
- first reaction: can not see the damage
- second reaction after further scrutinizing and discussions: didn't know about, when selling the item
- third reaction after admitting, there is a factual damage on the item: this will not harm the image quality, I should not mind - shop owner goes for a Leica M8 from another shop, to "deliver evidence"
- evidence could not be delivered, I advised on the test film, I shot and asked friendly, if we really have to see my scans, I had on my notebook with me (came directly from the office)
- no further negotiations needed - ships were sinking for the shop owner
- after negotiations (another 10 minutes, diplomacy of the skilled translator), the shop owner proposes, to write me a receipt over the exchange of the damaged lens for a good item, he might get in stock in the future - I do not agree
- a full return of the lens has been agreed (diminishing the full discount, that has been negotiated yesterday)
- I pointed out, I need a working lens (I knew only the two used, overpriced Voigtlanders from the other dealers, the black 50 lux or a few chrome lenses from him)
- we negotiated a buy of the 50 1.4 lux ASPH with written full return within 1 week and repair service for 1 year (the repair service is unpleasant, as he ships the item to Japan for repairing)
End of story:
i ended up with a likely good body (M6 classic, chrome in good condition - no visible damage or scratches and obviously good working order) and a 50 1.4 ASPH Summilux (not coded).
The serial points to a 2005 production date with a used price of aprox. 1700 EUR.
I will further investigate the status of the camera and lens and will prevent the dealer in the future, as I have not enough Leica experience, to match the trickery.
Does anyone know about serial no tweaking on a M6 body and especially the 50 lux ASPH?
Is there a good guide, to identify the lens for sure?
All in all, my very first Leica story hopefully has been ended with a scratch, some valuable experience and a tool, I will hopefully grow into using properly.
I am off for some shooting now.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Very dishonest seller. Even if the lens worked it would have devalued 50%. Glad a happy ending to the story.
Tom Diaz
Well-known
Congratulations on a better outcome. Changing serial numbers and names on equipment seems like it would be too hard for a store, but maybe those people are incredibly resourceful. I think Leica could tell you quickly whether the serial number of, for example, the lens is actually the number of a 50mm f/1.4 ASPH.
Pablito
coco frío
Damage to rear element is MUCH more likely to affect image quality than damage to front element.
thrice
Established
I've had a couple of similar issues, once with igor camera where he didn't notice scratches on the rear element of my 90 Apo-summicron-R (don't affect IQ) and another time with SH Photo where the lens had scratches on both the front and rear element (they marketed it as mint glass) and had a slightly reduced contrast. I found out SH Photo don't examine items if they're refurbished from Leica and just declare the glass as mint - Boris admitted this to me.
There are a lot of questionable dealers out there, it's nice when you find a really good one. I've learnt too many times, if a deal looks too good to be true, it almost always is (or someone got there before you and already got it!) haha.
There are a lot of questionable dealers out there, it's nice when you find a really good one. I've learnt too many times, if a deal looks too good to be true, it almost always is (or someone got there before you and already got it!) haha.
Turtle
Veteran
It ended well, but for a seller to claim that you should not be bothered about a chunk missing from a $2.8K lens on the grounds that it should not affect image quality is absurd. I would never deal with him again. Based on his response, I very much doubt that he was unaware of the damage. He probably bought the lens for peanuts .. and it would be interesting to drop in to the shop in a day or two and see if it is for sale on another camera (I say on another camera as some people might not check the rear element!)
menos
Veteran
I included the SN 3801110 in the thread title.
I am not aware of any history items list of Leica gear, but hope other customers have a better sense for smelling a bad deal over the counter.
The glass is not missing - it looked split under the surface.
Holding the lens in normal light, it would be harder to see, as the reflections of the rear element would partly cover the damage.
I took the photos with a deliberately pointed light source, to make the damage obvious and prevent reflections from the rear element surface.
In a standard inspection, shop owners do, when buying lenses this damage is very obvious without a question (hold against light source and check for defects).
The now purchased 50 1.4 ASPH seems to be in good order, despite the (usual?) sticky focus feel, leading to some difficulties, precisely focussing at longer distances @ f1.4.
How long - do these lenses run in, to have a silky smooth focus?
I am not aware of any history items list of Leica gear, but hope other customers have a better sense for smelling a bad deal over the counter.
The glass is not missing - it looked split under the surface.
Holding the lens in normal light, it would be harder to see, as the reflections of the rear element would partly cover the damage.
I took the photos with a deliberately pointed light source, to make the damage obvious and prevent reflections from the rear element surface.
In a standard inspection, shop owners do, when buying lenses this damage is very obvious without a question (hold against light source and check for defects).
The now purchased 50 1.4 ASPH seems to be in good order, despite the (usual?) sticky focus feel, leading to some difficulties, precisely focussing at longer distances @ f1.4.
How long - do these lenses run in, to have a silky smooth focus?
Turtle
Veteran
seems the 50 1.4 asphs take a while to run in. when not using it, perhaps exercise the focus to bed it in. Seems they stay stiffer than other lenses as they also move an extra element in the rear, but should become smoother at least. At least it means I is not heavily used!