Leica 50 Summicron (options)

[1fpm]

I have my first Leica on its way. An all black M6. Don't be shy to tell me the M6 was a good choice for my first rangefinder. 😉 I would like to pair it with a 50mm. I have been looking at the Leica Summicron 50mm updated for digital. I am not very knowledgeable regarding lenses for rangefinder film cameras (Sony digital cameras are a little picky regarding M mount lenses), Leica lenses, and options I may have that I don't realize. Is there a more economical choice of a 50mm for my M6 that may deliver similar results (an earlier version of the Summicron) or just a 50 I should look at.

I do have the CV 35/1.2 II but I am not sure how well I will be able to focus on the M6. The rangefinder is still a big curiosity to me but I hope to learn more over the coming year.

Thank you in advance and please cut me a little slack while I get myself up to speed on rangefinders and all their complexities (or lack there of).

 

[jonmanjiro]

Don't be shy to tell me the M6 was a good choice for my first rangfinder.

Can't go wrong with an M6 😉

Is there a more economical choice of a 50mm for my M6 that may deliver similar results (an earlier version of the Summicron) or just a 50 I should look at.

Zeiss ZM Planar 50mm F2. Just as good as the current non-apo 50mm Summicron for a lot less money.

I do have the CV 35/1.2 ii but I am not sure how well I will be able to focus on the M6.

The CV 35/1.2 should focus just fine on your M6. Will match the rendering of the Planar 50mm nicely too.

Welcome to RFF!

 

[Robert Lai]

Virtually any 50mm Summicron from the earliest collapsible (as long as the glass is clean and has a minimum of scratches), to today's latest Summicron ASPH ($7K, so pricey) will work great on your M6.
BTW - M6 is a great film camera, as are all Leica Ms.

Film is not sensitive to the angle of incidence of light rays hitting it, so you don't need the latest digital ASPH designs. A lot of us like the character of the older non ASPH 50mm Summicrons.

Basically, find one in good condition at a price point that you can afford. They are all good.

Less expensive options include the Elmar M 50mm f/2.8, and several Voigtlander Heliar 50mm lenses. I have the Heliar f/2.
Also, the Zeiss ZM 50mm 1.5 C is also a favorite of many.

 

[madNbad]

First, welcome to the forum. The M6 is a fine choice for your first M camera and if you already have the 35, use just that lens for a while as you get comfortable using the camera and don't be in too big of a hurry to add another lens. Take some time to search through the forum and you'll find many suggestions for a 50mm lens.

 

[ferider]

The M6 was a good choice for your first rangfinder. 🙂

The 35/1.2 will work great on the M6. I suggest to give it a few weeks with the Nokton and the camera, there are several dozens of alternatives for 50mm, once you shoot your 35, you will learn what you need in terms of speed, "rendering", handling, etc. For example, both of the following two f1.1 lenses will fit your M6 and 35 well:

Note that the M6 is great for 75mm, too - you'll see.

Enjoy !

 

[uhoh7]

Can't go wrong with an M6 😉
Zeiss ZM Planar 50mm F2. Just as good as the current non-apo 50mm Summicron for a lot less money.
Welcome to RFF!

No it isn't. 50mm Summicron v4 tabbed for about 900USD would be very nice. Planar is not close:

From Lensrentals optical bench

Really puts the lie to the common claim the planar is at the level of Mandler's lens. The Planar is a nice lens. It is not a 50 cron, sorry.


Jack by unoh7, M9 50 cron v4 WO

However before either 50 cron or Planar, I would get CV 50/1.5 in M mount. The newer one. This is a very strong lens and for film the speed would be nice. It is also a much more pretty lens in bokeh and the way it draws than the cron or planar.

CV 50/1.5 Samples

The advantage of the tabbed v4 cron is it is tiny:

50cron v4 by unoh7, on Flickr

Your CV 35/1.2 will be fine, but it's big. You might also consider a small 35, like the Cron asph, or one of the older ones. That's what alot of people love to use with M6. ZM35/2 or especially the ZM35/2.8 Biogon-C, which is small, great and about 600USD. But if you plan to keep the 1.2 maybe a 50 is what you want now. One other secret about that little 50 cron. The numbers are for infinity. Puts found that at 1 meter the pre-APO cron (v4 or 5) was better even than the 50 Lux ASPH at f/2. In other words it is phenomenal close up wide open.

 

[michaelwj]

Test charts and whatnot aside, the current 50mm Summicron has the same optics as the previous version, first released in 1979 with a lens tab. The earlier ones will be cheaper, and smaller. But do you like using a focus tab? If not, then the version with the built in hood is for you.

For Leica, "updated for digital" just means that it has dots on the back that tells DIGITAL the camera what lens is attached. It means nothing optically and will not impact the images.

The beauty of the M system is every M mount (or screw mount) lens will work with full functionality as designed on your M6, so feel free to look through the back catalogue, with includes lenses from Canon, Nikkor, Leica, Voigtlander, Zeiss, etc. There are some real beauties to be found! Take a took at the head bartenders site for a quick overview, and don't forget that everyone has at least one opinion!

The M6 is a great choice 🙂

 

[MIkhail]

It seems to me that M6 is a camera for 35, not as much for 50 lens. Can't go wrong with M6 of course. But viewfinder is much better with 35mm lens than it is with 50mm (frame lines)
I would not rush into 50mm, borrow from somebody and compare.
You will see.

 

[Huss]

No it isn't. 50mm Summicron v4 tabbed for about 900USD would be very nice. Planar is not close:

From Lensrentals optical bench

Really puts the lie to the common claim the planar is at the level of Mandler's lens. The Planar is a nice lens. It is not a 50 cron, sorry.

I have both and where the Planar absolutely owns the Summicron is resistance to lens flare.

 

[1fpm]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies and helpful suggestions. I will go at it with my 35 and head from there. My two favorite focal lengths are 28 and 50.

When someone says the M6 (0.72x VF) is better suited for framing on the M6 vs framing 50, can someone explain this a little better? This is the most confusing part of the range finder that I can't get a grasp on. Maybe it is one of those things you have to wait and see for yourself as suggested above.

I would rather have an older lens to match the camera. Don't get me wrong, I am contemplating on the latest 50 Summicron M, but I don't feel for this camera newer is better and everyone seems to agree so far.

I will use my CV 35 in the mean time even though it is heavy and a beast. I am afraid I will see it in my VF. Unsure how that will go. I am a big Voigtlander fan and will not hesitate to pick up a CV lens.

 

[icebear]

Another vote for the Planar 2/50. Ever since I got this lens my 'cron V3 sits on the shelf. That was maybe 10 years ago😉. I shoot possibly 50% of my bw shots with the Planar on my MM. In real world use it simply is a great lens. I don't give a ... about bench performance. I also don't shoot brick walls😀

And I forgot welcome to the forum. I just realized this is your first thread/post.
1 frame per minute? Like that handle.😉

Don't worry too much about the lens performance on film. Without the pixel peeping option to view a captured file at 100% on a monitor and realizing that focus wide open is not within the intended 2.375mm you wanted it, you just won't fret over RF adjustment and lend to body matching. Film thickness is more forgiving in that respect than a sensor plane.

As for the VF magnification ... in case you can't focus as properly or easily as you'd like too, simply because the RF focus patch image is a little too tiny, just get a screw in diopter 1.2x or even 1.4x. You'll loose a little of frame outside/around the out frame lines but gain easier focus.

 

[jonmanjiro]

No it isn't. 50mm Summicron v4 tabbed for about 900USD would be very nice. Planar is not close:

From Lensrentals optical bench

Really puts the lie to the common claim the planar is at the level of Mandler's lens. The Planar is a nice lens. It is not a 50 cron, sorry.

If edge sharpness at f/2 is important to you, then I guess the Summicron 50mm is the one to pick. I had both, and even did a side-by-side comparison test. The only differences I could see on film were slightly different colour rendering and the Planar had smoother bokeh. On real world subjects, I couldn't see any sharpness differences.

 

[michaelwj]

Wow! Thanks for all the replies and helpful suggestions. I will go at it with my 35 and head from there. My two favorite focal lengths are 28 and 50.

When someone says the M6 (0.72x VF) is better suited for framing on the M6 vs framing 50, can someone explain this a little better? This is the most confusing part of the range finder that I can't get a grasp on. Maybe it is one of those things you have to wait and see for yourself as suggested above.

I would rather have an older lens to match the camera. Don't get me wrong, I am contemplating on the latest 50 Summicron M, but I don't feel for this camera newer is better and everyone seems to agree so far.

I will use my CV 35 in the mean time even though it is heavy and a beast. I am afraid I will see it in my VF. Unsure how that will go. I am a big Voigtlander fan and will not hesitate to pick up a CV lens.

First thing. There are lots of ever so slightly variations in Leica's and you'd think they were so massively different, but they're not. They're tiny subtle differences.

As for the viewfinder. The viewfinder shows the same field of view at a certain magnification. The M6 has a 0.72x magnification, whereas the M3 had a 0.91x magnification. Within the viewfinder, frame lines are projected which show you the rough image you will get. The framelines that are projected come in pairs on the M6, and their size is related to the magnification. See here.

Now, you can see that in the image linked above that the 90mm framelines are pretty small in the 0.72x, smaller in the 0.58x, and bigger in the 0.85x. Some people prefer the 0.85x (or 0.91x of the M3) for a 50mm lens as the frame is bigger, but you give up the chance of 28mm frame lines, so there is a choice. 0.72x has been the standard since the 60s, and is by far the most common and versatile. If you plan on possibly getting a 28mm get a 0.72x magnification. 0.72x is also more common and therefore cheaper.

Keep in mind that the accuracy of the RF is related to the VF magnification, so all else being equal, the higher the magnification, the better the accuracy. In saying that, 0.72 is still very accurate.

The M6, like most M's, has a frame line preview lever so you can with frame lines manually to check out what the look like. It will go back to the correct one for the lens when you let it go.

My advice is to get the camera and use it with your 35mm lens. You'll either love it or hate it, if you love it, then you can think about getting a second lens.

Enjoy.

 

[Robert Lai]

The beauty of the rangefinder camera is that everything we are discussing here will be immediately obvious to you when you put the viewfinder to the eye. I have trouble seeing the 35mm frame lines on a 0.72X magnification Leica M, as I wear glasses. I have to scan around to see the edges. The 28mm framelines are worse for me.

That's why the original M3 had 0.91X magnification, and started the framelines at 50mm.

You should have no problems seeing the framelines and the rangefinder patch with a 50mm lens on your M6.

The very large CV 35mm lens may cut off the view of the lower right corner of your viewfinder frame due to the bulk of the lens body intruding into the field of view. That's why most of us prefer tiny lenses.

 

[snot]

When someone says the M6 (0.72x VF) is better suited for framing on the M6 vs framing 50, can someone explain this a little better? This is the most confusing part of the range finder that I can't get a grasp on. Maybe it is one of those things you have to wait and see for yourself as suggested above.

There are multiple magnifications found in M bodies (.58x, .72x, .85x, .91x).

I'll try to describe this the best I can:

Think of it like this;

The lower the magnification - the better for wide lenses.

The higher the magnification - the better for normal / tele lenses.

To someone that wears glasses and shoots with a 28mm lens, the 28mm frame lines in a .72x finder might as well be nonexistent - this is where a .58x mag really helps out. It's a wider finder in a sense, so the 28mm lines (in a .58x finder) will look like the 35mm lines in a .72x.

I would say .72x is the best general-use finder, being well suited for 28mm/35mm/50mm.

.85x (and .91x found in the M3) will be your best bet for accuracy with shooting 50mm and above. The higher mag fills the finder with the 50mm frame lines, causing them to be the most accurate.

All in all, get a 50mm lens for your .72 M6 and do not worry about accuracy. It will be dead-accurate, and you'll love it.

My favorite combo is using a 50mm lens with a .72 finder. I wear glasses, and the 50mm frame lines fill my view through the finder, yet leaving some extra space to see outside of the lines.

 

[uhoh7]

If edge sharpness at f/2 is important to you, then I guess the Summicron 50mm is the one to pick. I had both, and even did a side-by-side comparison test. The only differences I could see were slightly different colour rendering and the Planar had smoother bokeh. On real world subjects, I couldn't see any sharpness differences.

You might well prefer the planar for any number of reasons. They are different lenses, but there is really no question which one is technically stronger. That difference may not be obvious to me or to you, every day. It does not mean it's not there. It's taken me years to appreciate how good the v4 cron really is. The more you compare lenses and how they work on various cameras the more respect you have for serious testing, and lamentably the lack of serious testing today. Even those very careful tests above are only at 2 apertures and only for infinity. In a way they are totally silly: who shoots WO at infinity? Yet all MTF charts are showing infinity. Everyone looks at the fast speeds, of course. :bang:

I've also heard about the harsh bokeh of the 50 cron. So far I have not seen it, but I'll keep my eye out. Wait, let me find some sticks.


L1006776 by unoh7, 50 cron WO

Is that bad OOF? Honestly, I have a bunch of fast lenses, the bokeh is sometimes very nice, and other times less so. Today:


DSC09777 by unoh7, 50 Cron WO

Certainly does not go out of it's way to ruin shots with distracting bokeh. Maybe planar is better, but it's not famous for fantastic bokeh either. 🙂

I just think the "planar is cheaper cron" thing is something planar users like to say. Why? Part of the "Leica is ripoff" vein of complaint, which has very long history. They are different. Cron is much smaller. 🙂

Today both lenses are very good values, hard to say which is the better deal. Might come down to the copy. I'd rather have a good planar than a bad cron, or vice versa 😉

 

[jonmanjiro]

You might well prefer the planar for any number of reasons.

In the end I somehow preferred the look of the Summicron 50mm V5 images, so sold the Planar and kept the Summicron 🙂

Cron is much smaller. 🙂

I don't remember there being much difference in size. Maybe the Planar was lightly longer.

Today both lenses are very good values, hard to say which is the better deal.

Absolutely. So many good choices in the 50mm focal length for rangefinders.

 

[uhoh7]

In the end I somehow preferred the look of the Summicron 50mm V5 images, so sold the Planar and kept the Summicron 🙂

It sneaks up on you 😉


L1056632 by US Alpine Championships, 50 cron WO

Your v5 is not really smaller. The v4 is same formula but in the really small original body. Mine is German, tabbed, but Canada fine too as noted below 🙂

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Black M6 is cool. Get tabbed Canadian Cron. To match M6 and to have at least one lens to focus fast and without workout with weight. 🙂

 

[Daryl J.]

I love my V.3 50 Summicron. For some reason it's labeled the least desirable of the 50 Summicrons but to my eye, has a beautiful blend of classic and modern renderings that puts something on film that says "happy".