Leica LTM Leica IIIC K - share info and questions

[Mr_Flibble]

Cheers Tom,

I had no interest in it myself, but someone on the Classic Camera Collector's FB page linked it.
I had figured it was a regular IIIc from 1943 and that it was way overpriced.

 

[Austrowolf]

Just to share something from my collection:

My 1942 chrome IIIc K with Summitar 2/50 mm. It is one of only about 50 cameras of this type known to exist. According to Jim Lager, the camera has been delivered to Berlin on the 15th of September 1942. The lens however is listed as military issue, being delivered on the 26th of July 1941 to Luftwaffe Bln. The camera and the lens have been found together at the end of the war (there is quite a nice story about it), so I presume that the camera has been originaly delivered to the Luftwaffe as well.

The camera has been verified by James Lager, and further checked and restored by Ottmar Michaely.

 

[martinjames]

Austrowolf (Adam), that is really nice! Excellent presentation in the photo, too, with the period publications. Great stuff...

 

[martinjames]

So, I have just recently acquired my first K camera, one of those small number of unmarked 1945 cameras supplied to the US Army. (Thanks, LeicaTom for helpful information and to Ray).
Perhaps a photo later but for now I am really interested to learn - and see - more about the exact differences between the different shutter mechanisms used through the years by Leitz. I'm a very visually-minded person that would love to see illustrations as well as explanations about these mechanisms. Anything like that exist - or in the works?

 

[Punkinhed7]

Hi all. I was wondering if you might be able to help me out with a little decision. I have the opportunity to purchase one of two (presumably genuine, at this point) IIIc's and after reading many many pages of posts regarding the war-time issued cameras/lenses I'm left a bit confused as to the age/provenance of one of the cameras. I know they aren't totally reliable, but all of the info I've been able to glean from SN lists on the internet suggest that one of them, sn 391718, is from 1943 (which seems fairly reasonable in combination with the Summitar 50/2, SN 578992 'from' 1941). However, it doesn't appear to be a Grey camera (at least to my eyes) and I saw in another thread a comment by Tom that there are no chrome 1943 IIIc's. In yet another thread I saw reference to the Hahne list stating that the last grey IIIc serial number (aside from the later ones for the US Army) was 390699 -- 19 before the sn of this camera. With all of that in mind -- or ignoring it completely -- what do you make of this camera? The other camera has sn 436778, is mounted with a 35/3.5 Elmar, and at least from the quick pictures I snapped appears to be in somewhat better condition cosmetically (I think the earlier one is actually cheaper because something -- I didn't have the time investigate fully -- was slightly wrong with it). Which one would you go with and why (assuming that the 39xxxx camera is not too horribly screwed up), and what do you make of the '1943' camera? Also, what would you consider a fair price for the chosen camera/lens combination (assuming working condition)? Pictures of both below:

Camera #1:

Camera #2:

Thanks in advance, I appreciate the help.

Cheers

 

[Vince Lupo]

I think that 391xxx is a regular chrome IIIc. Looking in my Wehrmacht Leica book by Jim Lager, there are indications that there were chrome IIIc's during that time period (at least through to 391254). 391695-699 were delivered to Berlin on shipment 9975 on 5/12/44, and 391700 went to the US Army on shipment 13243. According to Jim Lager, they were IIIcK's. That one you're interested in doesn't appear to be a 'K', but I'd consider it interesting merely from an historical perspective (at least as far as what was happening to the cameras all around it). Might be a question for Jim Lager.

Other camera looks fine, but I think those 'steppers' (the wartime ones) seem to generate more interest. At least they do to me.

 

[ray*j*gun]

So, I have just recently acquired my first K camera, one of those small number of unmarked 1945 cameras supplied to the US Army. (Thanks, LeicaTom for helpful information and to Ray).
Perhaps a photo later but for now I am really interested to learn - and see - more about the exact differences between the different shutter mechanisms used through the years by Leitz. I'm a very visually-minded person that would love to see illustrations as well as explanations about these mechanisms. Anything like that exist - or in the works?

Your welcome James.... I hope your enjoying it as much as I did.

 

[Fadedsun]

Hi guys. I'm new to board, and now a proud owner of my first Leica camera, which is the Leica iiic. I had a couple questions about the range/view finders. I'm not sure if there's something wrong with mine. First of all, my RF came equipped with a yellow filter over it (supposedly to ease judging distances), the VF seems fine, but everything seems very far away. Does the vf show what the lens will actually capture like my Canon A-1 with 50mm does?

Regarding the RF, it seems a little dim, and it's so hard to make out and focus what's in the RF. And is everything supposed to be so zoomed in? I feel like I can't get reasonably close to a subject, because when I look through the RF I can barely see the subject anymore, let alone try and focus it in the RF. Is this normal? And is it normal for the RF to be hard to use in dim lighting? I was trying to use it in my room at night with only my lights on and I could barely make anything out when looking through out, but the VF was fine.

Thanks to anyone that can clear this up! Besides this, the camera is wonderful and I can't wait to use it. Oh, and it came equipped with a 1954 Elmar 50mm f3.5 lens. The aperture adjustment is a bit of a pain, but from what I read on the boards this is a fantastic lens to own, though I think a Summitar might be more up my alley in the future with the more modern aperture adjustment.

 

[LeicaTom]

#391718 is a (normal IIIC) shipped probably to the US Army PX in Frankfurt ca. early 1946.

Nearly all wartime produced cameras after June 1943 were RLM-Grey paint, unless they were either held back or unsold, there's some 1944 chrome Luftwaffen cameras and part of the #391xxx serial number era cameras were RLM-Grey Luftwaffen issued in 1944.

A remaining group of early serial #3911xx camera's were Kugellager shutter cameras issued to the US Army in July/August 1945 (less than 200) and the rest of the end serial (high numbers after 700+ were issued in 1946).

Leica serial numbers didn't run consecutive to production at all like some people might think, even some #397xxx (originally 1946 numbers) were use for betriebskameras in the mid 1960's).

Welcome to the crazy world of owning a "wartime" style Leica IIIC.

Tom

 

[martinjames]

From the official spare parts list and servicing instructions from Leitz in the 1960's it is clear that in EVERY Ic, IIc, IIIc, If, IIf, IIIf, Ig and IIIg with serial numbers higher than 451001 three ball bearings were used, one of 14 balls of 1,5 mm, a double one of 2 x 9 balls of 1,2 mm and one of 12 balls of 1 mm.

Erik.

I've not seen such service info/parts lists but I have no doubt this is correct. So the unmarked 1945 IIIcK (393xxx) that I have might best be thought of as... an interesting transitional item? In essence, the functional equivalent of the slightly later (approximately 1951 and onward) cameras, but in the earlier, "stepper" style top plate?
But I have wondered… if the shutter/transport mechanism is the same why does it feel and sound so different from my 1952-ish IIIf, and similar age If (And other, later-50's III's I have handled)? Are they still different in some way, that would account for this?

James

 

[Erik van Straten]

if the shutter/transport mechanism is the same why does it feel and sound so different from my 1952-ish IIIf, and similar age If (And other, later-50's III's I have handled)?

James

The "normal" post war III's (conversions from pre-war cameras) have no ball bearings.
The IIIf's have a flash synch mechanism wich often causes shutter problems, in that case they need servicing. When these cameras are properly serviced they are all VERY smooth.

Erik.

 

[martinjames]

Yes, no doubt about the smooth operation of the IIIf (and related models) when properly serviced. My IIIf was serviced by Don (DAG) and it runs very nicely, indeed. The IIIcK was also serviced and it, too, is exceptionally smooth. Just… different!

James

 

[Erik van Straten]

The IIIcK was also serviced and it, too, is exceptionally smooth. Just… different!

It is possible that the ball bearings of the wartime IIIcK are different from those of the post-war period. Also the synch of the IIIf has an effect on the smoothness of the camera.
However, I have a grey wartime IIIc (pre K) that is smoother than my ball bearing post war IIIc. It was serviced by Mr. Scherpenborg in Nijmegen. He states that there is not much difference in smoothness between the wartime IIIcK and the IIIc models. Even a test in the fridge did not bring out much difference between the two.

Erik.

 

[LeicaTom]

Even a test in the fridge did not bring out much difference between the two.

Erik.

That's great Erik, in the fridge I Love It! 🙂

Tom

 

[Mr_Flibble]

The post-war IIIc shutter design had less ball-bearings than the war-time IIIcK shutter. The IIIf shutter had the full complement of ball-bearings once more.

Fridge-Test...that should be a thing 🙂

 

[oltimer]

The post-war IIIc shutter design had less ball-bearings than the war-time IIIcK shutter. The IIIf shutter had the full complement of ball-bearings once more.

Fridge-Test...that should be a thing 🙂

On the IIIF shutter ball bearings, is this post 622xxx, or before?

 

[Erik van Straten]

The post-war IIIc shutter design had less ball-bearings than the war-time IIIcK shutter. The IIIf shutter had the full complement of ball-bearings once more.

Not true. All post war ball-bearing cameras had the same amount of balls: 44 to be precise, in three ball-bearings. See these original Leitz documents.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Fridge-Test...that should be a thing 🙂

Not difficult. Just put your Leica in the fridge for some time to see if it will work in the cold.

Erik.

 

[oltimer]

Thank you Erik for posting the sheets along with the group serial #'s that it applied to. Great info.

 

[Erik van Straten]

Thank you Erik for posting the sheets along with the group serial #'s that it applied to.

The information is also intended for servicing the other cameras mentioned in the columns at right.

Erik.