Leica LTM Leica IIIC K - share info and questions

[Mr_Flibble]

A lot of WW2 re-enactment vendors stock the wool-knit "Jeep Cap". They were standard issue, to be worn under the M1 Helmet for comfort. But they became popular to wear without the helmet to the annoyance of a certain general who was big on ties too.

"Radio th' ol' man we'll be late on account of a thousand-mile detour."

Jeep coats like Ernie wore in that photo are not replicated on a big scale yet and thus quite expensive.


Jorge Lewinsky devotes a chapter of "The Camera At War" on the AFPU, mainly structure and organisation. He mentions that a lot of the photos taken in Africa by some units were 're-enacted' with British soldiers dressed up as Italians.
Peter Maslowski in "Armed with Cameras" mentions that US camera units were forbidden to stage scenes. Though some film footage from Italy clearly shows GIs waiting for a que to begin a scene. And 'Dead' GIs appearing in later scenes.

As I recall the AFPU photographers were issued Zeiss Super Ikonta 530 and 532 cameras (Bought in large quantities through Turkey) , Rolleiflexes and Kodak Medalists.

 

[johannielscom]

...

What's happening with your CZJ/LTM Sonnar's lately.......anything new on that??? 🙂

Tom

Spring break here but no spring in sight, bright sun & harsh light but sub zero temperatures due to continental northeastern wind.

Yet, I hope to shoot some stuff tomorrow with the 50/1.5 and 135/4.0 Sonnars!

I'm thinking rural countryside stuff, hope to get some people in there as well.

 

[LeicaTom]

Ohh and here's some *trivia* for all you Leica IIIC K lovers............

In May/June 1945 a Leica IIIC K Grey with a f3.5/50 Elmar and a "Flat Nose" case cost via US Army sales receipt with factory pickup at Wetzlar ~
351 Reichmarks which was a whopping -

$35.10 !

or about

£ 9 Sterling

In 1945 Military currency values or between 30 to 40 cartons of cigarettes bartered -

There's no wonder that new Leica's were a HOT item in the Western Zone's postwar Black Market scene 🙂

Enjoy!

Tom

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Any idea what the modern day equivalent would be to those prices?
For a IIIcK I would imagine it to be quite low.


Cheers,

p.s. Apparently AtTheFront sells Makinaw "Jeep Coats" for $150 in big sizes, get your Ernie Pyle gear now
Tanker goggles as worn by Burgess Meredith as Ernie in "The Story of GI Joe" are available from WhatPriceGlory for the same price.
😉

 

[LeicaTom]

Any idea what the modern day equivalent would be to those prices?
For a IIIcK I would imagine it to be quite low.

😉

Here we go............

$35.10 in 1945 had the same buying power as $425.83 in 2010.


Annual inflation over this period was 3.91%

So about the price now of a average good quality point and shoot digital camera.

Tom

PS: Now let's not forget that the $35.10 was the Factory TO Black Market price, the open market price for the camera combo, was much much more, I recall that in postwar NYC, "bringback" IIIC K's were selling for nearly $200 so their resale value then was 4 to 6 times greater than original price, AS THEY WERE COLLECTIBLE FROM THE GET GO..... 😉

 

[johannielscom]

Found a sale on Schouten-select.com for two Kugellager camera's with consecutive numbers. One sold to the US Army, while the later number was sold almost 1.5 years earlier to the Wehrmacht Heer.

Seems these camera's at one time were next to eachother on a desk and now some ~65 years later have met again. What are the odds.

Bring lotsa dough (although I actually think there are collectors out there that will happily and quickly smack the cash on the counter to have this set of camera's).

There's 42 shots of the camera's and lenses to wet your appetite.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

"Rick you're drooling!"
"Only out of respect, sir"

 

[LeicaTom]

That W.H. camera came from an estate in Germany about 3 years ago, I knew the original owners.........(from 1946)

Conditions and prices don't jive, S-S are very overpriced anyway.

There's been a few consecutive numbered US Army cameras sold in the past 4 years, I have two cameras 4 serial numbers apart issued same day.

Hasn't been any new cameras offered by anyone for quite a while now over the internet, I have been still finding most of the stuff privately, S-S have had those two cameras for over a year now.

Tom

 

[littlefields]

Leica IIIC K in Grey Vulcanite

Leica IIIC K in Grey Vulcanite

Howdy all,
Here are a few photos of the Leica IIIc with a 5cm Summitar that I bought and had serviced a few weeks ago. The repairman (who specializes in classic rangefinders) told me that the shutter is a full ball-bearing shutter, and that there was a "K" etched inside the body, under the accessory shoe. Photos are attached. I've read about the various "K" cameras out there, but have never heard of the "K" marking etched inside of the body. Any thoughts?
The lens serial number is 586615 (1942?); the body is 392594
(1944?)
The dual PC ports were added sometime after the war. Whoever did the work used silver wiring, which was attached to the bottom inside plate of the camera. Over the years, the wiring shifted and caused the shutter to stop firing. I had the wiring removed, and with a full CLA this camera is ready to take wonderful photos again 🙂

 

[LeicaTom]

Howdy all,
Here are a few photos of the Leica IIIc with a 5cm Summitar that I bought and had serviced a few weeks ago. The repairman (who specializes in classic rangefinders) told me that the shutter is a full ball-bearing shutter, and that there was a "K" etched inside the body, under the accessory shoe. Photos are attached. I've read about the various "K" cameras out there, but have never heard of the "K" marking etched inside of the body. Any thoughts?
The lens serial number is 586615 (1942?); the body is 392594
(1944?)
The dual PC ports were added sometime after the war. Whoever did the work used silver wiring, which was attached to the bottom inside plate of the camera. Over the years, the wiring shifted and caused the shutter to stop firing. I had the wiring removed, and with a full CLA this camera is ready to take wonderful photos again 🙂

That K scribe is a inspection initial of a worker at Leitz, that K is under the bottom of IIIC accessory shoe's into the early 1950's and has NOTHING to do with being a
Ball Bearing style camera.

#392594 is ca. Dec 1945/Jan 1946 the lens is more than likely matching original #586xxx series is post Sept. 1945, this camera was issued to the US Army, very nice find, hard to find these cameras anymore with matching lenses.

Those online serial number websites are very incorrect the ONLY way to check any cameras made after #392001 *US Army Issued Stepper Rewind IIIC's* is to get the information from me.........
(BTW. Jim Lager doesn't record or research any US Army issued cameras, other than the Grey painted ones, from the factory records I have from other cameras in this serial range , the camera should be one of the early "F" style bearing cameras, it should also have a Summitar code?).

Did the camera get new shutter curtains? The only way to check a camera if it`s a full ball bearing camera is to take apart the curtain drums or X-Ray the camera, that's the best way to tell what's inside a camera, I have a Doctor friend who will X-Ray for bearings.

Grey vulcanite was featured on cameras into mid 1946, alot of left over WW2 deadstock, the quality of the rubber is also very inferior and is tending to crack and break off.

Tom

 

[enasniearth]

iiic with k under shoe

iiic with k under shoe

very nice camera .
there were k shutters in this range unmarked so this is possible , they were useing up assemblys left from wartime production .
usual cameras also had z on shutter dial instead of b .

seems the k shutters were just used as needed to complete cameras post may 1945 , some are some are not .
if the service person has verified the ball bearings on the drums , the k mark under the shoe makes it interesting .
thanks for your post , you should contact jim lager for his opinion on the k scribe under the shoe ,

 

[littlefields]

Thank you, guys! The gentleman who did the CLA checked and re-timed the shutter assembly and removed the assembly to check the curtains (which are original and in very nice condition...that's how he determined that it is a full ball-bearing shutter instead of a half-ball bearing one. I was wondering about the shutter dial not having a "Z", too...might be a replacement. BTW, where do I look for a code on the Summitar, and how does one determine if the lens is original to the camera? Thanks again!

 

[enasniearth]

summitar

summitar

from the number it is probably late 1945 early 1946 .
contact jim lager about the summitar , he may be able to help with information for the lens . as tom said he may not have the delivery for the body . records from this time are no longer being provided to you or me from leitz in germany .
i had a iiic in the 392xxx range was not able to find any information on the body however was able to find the elmar lens was delivered to the us army in oct 1945 . it was most likely a k shutter camera , however i never had it serviced to verify . so there is always doubt there .
most k type cameras were marked k after the serial number on the top plate with a k in white or red on the second shutter curtain ( shutter must be cocked to see this mark ).
there are some k shutter types marked k on the curtain with no k after the serial number , these are chrome delivered post war with perhaps 200 or more made . most are in a group of 200 numbers .
other k type cameras were produced not identified in any way , useing up left over k type shutter assemblies from wartime production . only way to tell is to inspect for the bearings . production numbers unknown . some cameras were produced with the new type shutter out of number sequence with k types mixed in . so you can not go by number ranges on these cameras .

 

[Mr_Flibble]

Saw this one offered up at Gumtree

Leica IIIcK add

No idea how legit it is.

 

[RF_newbie]

Saw this one offered up at Gumtree

Leica IIIcK add

No idea how legit it is.

It is 100% fake, camera is real though 🙂

 

[xoDox]

Gumtree Leica IIIcK

Gumtree Leica IIIcK

That's strange. It was sold for $4989 on eBay on March 13!
You can do the math 🙂

 

[CameraQuest]

the Leitz dockets have recorded the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe issues very thoroughly and if it doesn't say so in the original docket it's NOT an original item.

Tom

Unfortunately I must disagree.

While the Leica lenses and bodies listed as military issue are accurate and can be trusted to be military issue (at least until someone engraves a blank top plate), the problem is that the Leitz wartime dockets can be rather sloppy and inaccurate when it comes to military deliveries NOT listed in Leitz records.

Leica's best and brightest were not working on the the inventory and shipping lists.

As Lars Nepotil pointed out to me, the first Leica IIIc's were listed as Leica IIIb's! Such was the standard of Leitz record keeping, or was it job training?

If you read Jim Lagers superb Wehrmacht Leica book, he correctly lists the earliest official Leica Luftwaffen camera in August 1939, yet is very obvious the Luftwaffe existed BEFORE August 1939. Before that date Luftwaffen Leicas were not recorded. We simply don't know the serial numbers or quantities before that time. Yet is obvious they do indeed exist. I own one of them, a war prize that returned with an American soldier.

The problem with this SAD FACT is that it opens up the possibility of a seemingly unlimited number of "Unrecorded" LUFTWAFFEN (and HEER and KRIEGSMARINE) cameras to any skilled engraver with the proper Leitz engraving machine. Oh well. Unfortunately it just happens to be true we don't know how many Leicas were delivered to the military BEFORE the guys working on the inventory list (who did not know the difference between a IIIB and a IIIC) started to record the military shipments.

Stephen

 

[LeicaTom]

Sad what people do nowadays.........I'm sure that someday I'll find photos of my cameras and lenses for sale someplace online, really messed up how people plan to scam and rip each other off online 🙁

Someone should report this, I have already written the camera's real owner about this now.

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

Unfortunately I must disagree.

While the Leica lenses and bodies listed as military issue are accurate and can be trusted to be military issue (at least until someone engraves a blank top plate), the problem is that the Leitz wartime dockets can be rather sloppy and inaccurate when it comes to military deliveries NOT listed in Leitz records.

Leica's best and brightest were not working on the the inventory and shipping lists.

As Lars Nepotil pointed out to me, the first Leica IIIc's were listed as Leica IIIb's! Such was the standard of Leitz record keeping, or was it job training?

If you read Jim Lagers superb Wehrmacht Leica book, he correctly lists the earliest official Leica Luftwaffen camera in August 1939, yet is very obvious the Luftwaffe existed BEFORE August 1939. Before that date Luftwaffen Leicas were not recorded. We simply don't know the serial numbers or quanities before that time. Yet is obvious they do indeed exist. I own one of them, a war prize that returned with an American soldier.

The problem with this SAD FACT is that it opens up the possibility of a seemingly unlimited number of "Unrecorded" LUFTWAFFEN (and HEER and KRIEGSMARINE) cameras to any skilled engraver with the proper Leitz engraving machine. Oh well. Unfortunately it just happens to be true we don't know how many Leicas were delivered to the military BEFORE the guys on the inventory list who did not know the difference between a IIIB and a IIIC started to record the military shipments.

Stephen

Stephen,

It was Jim Lager and I (and the Leica Museum) who researched the German Navy stuff together (about two years ago) and realized that it was very well documented and with some special issues, like my 1942 IIIC with a German Navy issued Xenon were completely listed and verifable, you just need to sit down and look through the original dockets and read all the Military notes added to each delivery, often codes were written wrong or even skipped, but with intensive research you can know what order numbers specifically went to which branch of the Military......

It's the many German Army cameras that are NOT listed, but most 70% of the Luftwaffe gear made after 1941 is noted by and in the dockets.

In the past 6 years I have had NO PROBLEM getting 100% verification on any WW2 Nazi era Military camera or lens that I have owned or sold, when in doubt donlt buy plain and simple, that's no money wasted.

Clearly cameras/lenses that were issued to Bulgaria or Romania aren't Kriegsmarine items, it's stuff like that, that comes up online for sale that people are duped into.......buying.

Tom

PS; And if you think the WW2 dockets are sloppy, you haven't seen anything till you have seen the postwar records to the US Army issues......some are written and scribbled in pencil, very hastily written as they issued cameras faster than they could make them up to 1947. 😛

 

[CameraQuest]

Stephen,

It was Jim Lager and I who researched the German Navy stuff together and realized that it was very well documented and with some special issues, like my IIIC with a German Navy issued Xenon were completely listed and verifable.

It's the many German Army cameras that are NOT listed, but most 70% of the Luftwaffe gear made after 1941 is noted by and in the dockets.

In the past 6 years I have had NO PROBLEM getting 100% verification on any WW2 Nazi era Military camera or lens that I have owned or sold.

Clearly cameras that were issued to Bulgaria or Romania aren't Kriegsmarine items, it's stuff like that, that comes up online for sale that people are duped into.......

Tom

Tom,

my comments were about military cameras issued BEFORE the first recorded Leica military shipments, ie August 1939.

For those, we simply don't know because the Leica military shipments were apparently not recorded before that time.


Stephen