Leica IIIC K - share info and questions

[LeicaTom]

I know, I had a long argumentation with Jim about these lenses.

I saw both the lenses sold by Westlicht, both belonged from unofficial batch, civilian not written gray, they were n.575.601 (year 1945) and n.576.078 (year 1944).

There are various grey lenses from not official batches, here and there.
For ex. in a grouping of 13.5cm Hektors sent to Berlin on
6.1.45 (15 lenses ) on shipment 13099,
This is only months before the capitulation.
Another batch, sent to Berlin on 4.9.44 on shipment 9778.
Both "...Absolutely no mention of grey finish, many
of these grey HEFAR lenses are not written grey in the records ", Jim wrote me, "but believed genuine".

I know of registered gray Hefar 1941, very few survives, but according to Jim the "almost mythical Hefar " is the WH marked (one and only one batch), rarer than the gray, also different from all the other Hefar!
There are suggestions that Leitz held the focal length of the WH HEFAR to very tight tolerances.
This was done presumably to maintain uniform measurement results.

Cheers

P.S.: yes I have a number of these items, a very interesting field for the researcher/collector that I am.
In the case I will make you know, thank you.
---
P.P.S: your Hefar is really nice!

Email me off this thread please.....

Thanks

Tom

 

[sabears]

Done!

Cheers.

 

[LeicaTom]

Here's my 1943 IIIC K Grey camera, 1944 Grey Hektor 135mm lens, a FIKUS hood, Black Nose VIOOH finder and OKARO rangefinder filter.

Enjoy!

Tom

 

[sabears]

Email me off this thread please.....

Thanks

Tom

Hi Tom, I have not received your response.
May be my message with informations regarding coated lenses etc. gone lost?

However, no problem, the buyer of the lens (O.M.) asked to me regarding this lens, as he knows that I'm a researcher in the field.

Wartime collectors/researchers is a little family...

I'm still interested about the gray Hektor owned by the dealer you say, do you have photos or serial n.? Conditions?What's the requested price? ...

 

[LeicaTom]

Hi Tom, I have not received your response.
May be my message with informations regarding coated lenses etc. gone lost?

However, no problem, the buyer of the lens (O.M.) asked to me regarding this lens, as he knows that I'm a researcher in the field.

Wartime collectors/researchers is a little family...

I'm still interested about the gray Hektor owned by the dealer you say, do you have photos or serial n.? Conditions?What's the requested price? ...

Sorry my email was acting up.......I'll get back to you 🙂

Tom

 

[RF_newbie]

Here is a very very very rare 1941 KM Hektor

 

[fbf]

Here is a very very very rare 1941 KM Hektor

wow, this belongs to museum. You should donate it. 😀

 

[CameraQuest]

Here is a very very very rare 1941 KM Hektor

Does anyone know definitively - with original source material -- what the MF engraving stands for?

Thanks
Stephen

 

[RF_newbie]

Does anyone know definitively - with original source material -- what the MF engraving stands for?

Thanks
Stephen

Stephen the MF is Marineflieger(German navy)but the numbers
( 630, 685, 690 ) are not known from what i have heard.
Jim Lager says " my guess is a specific
aircraft , unit, or crew."

 

[rxmd]

Does anyone know definitively - with original source material -- what the MF engraving stands for?

Common wisdom holds it to stand for "Marineflieger", that is naval air arm. This is very improbable, though, because the German Kriegsmarine (navy) during the war had no naval air force as such. Units called "Marineflieger" had existed in Germany only during WW1 until the Versailles treaty forbade the possession of aircraft, and then again only after the post-WW2 rearmament (the "Kommando der Marineflieger" was established in 1956).

There were some "Seeflieger" units after the beginning of open rearmament in 1935. These were called "Seeflieger" and subdivided into "Küstenflieger" (coastal air arm) and "Bordflieger" (on-board air arm). However, in 1939 Göring gave the famous command that "all that flies belong to me", dissolving them and integrating them into the regular air force on 27 January 1939. Even the on-board aircraft on Navy surface ships (mostly Arado 196s after 1938 or so) were Luftwaffe aircraft and had Luftwaffe markings.

 

[johannielscom]

MF = Marine-Fotografen then? Meaning Marine-Photographer.

 

[Mr_Flibble]

I guess, without official reference there's no way of telling. It might as well be Marine Funker, Radio Operator. I have no idea who had the official task of taking photographs on board vessels within the Kriegsmarine

 

[LeicaTom]

I guess, without official reference there's no way of telling. It might as well be Marine Funker, Radio Operator. I have no idea who had the official task of taking photographs on board vessels within the Kriegsmarine

The PK had the responsiblity of taking pictures during Militray operations (Propaganda Kompanie) *I hope the spellings right?* each military function of the German War machine had PK units (Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine and Wehrmacht) as well as the KB (Kriegsberichter) *War correspondents* who also sometimes took pictures as well.

The 1942 Leica IIIC/Xenon combo I once owned was a 100% verified original camera issued to a PK unit working with the German U-Boat arm, the camera was part of some Royal Navy Booty recovered from a damaged U-Boat from the surviving German PK Officer's kit.

I personally believe that the Kriegsmarine MF numbers are like the FL numbers are to the Luftwaffe, they are series numbers to identify offically ordered kits and equipment used by the Navy, the Leitz dockets have recorded the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe issues very thoroughly and if it doesn't say so in the original docket it's NOT an original item.

There has recently been a serge of faked WW2 German and British engraved lenses on the ebay lately, so take my advice it's always best to have anything that's militray marked verified by an expert who has access to the original Leitz dockets and files, before you invest any $$$$$$ in anything that's WW2 military marked. 😉

Tom

 

[rxmd]

The PK had the responsiblity of taking pictures during Militray operations
(Propaganda Kompanie) *I hope the spellings right?* each military function of the German War machine had PK units (Luftwaffe/Kriegsmarine/Wehrmacht as well as KB (Kriegsberichter) *War correspondents* who also sometimes took pictures as well.

Well but of course this only covers photography for propaganda purposes, basically military journalism.

There are all sorts of other military uses for a Leica, from reconnaissance to documentation to immediate military applications such as artillery spotting. Of course those wouldn't be handled by a Propagandakompanie. My grandfather (who's still alive and whose R5 I now use) was an antiaircraft gunner and radar engineer, and he used to tell me the first Leica he used was an army issue model used to document all sorts of things around the antiaircraft installation.

 

[LeicaTom]

...Ohh btw here's a good question aimed at any WW2 British Military experts 🙂

On the Allied side we American's had the US Army Signal Corps/Photo or Photographic Unit and also US War Correspondents/Stars & Stripes taking the photos/film on the battlefields of Europe and the Pacific in WW2.

What were the British Militray Camera carriers called?????

Tom

 

[Mr_Flibble]

"AFPU" Army Film & Photography Unit, as I recall.

I've been meaning to put a uniform together for a AFPU member in North Africa, to go together with my Zeiss Super Ikonta. I need to do some more research on it though.

 

[LeicaTom]

Well but of course this only covers photography for propaganda purposes, basically military journalism.

There are all sorts of other military uses for a Leica, from reconnaissance to documentation to immediate military applications such as artillery spotting. Of course those wouldn't be handled by a Propagandakompanie. My grandfather (who's still alive and whose R5 I now use) was an antiaircraft gunner and radar engineer, and he used to tell me the first Leica he used was an army issue model used to document all sorts of things around the antiaircraft installation.

Right, I think with working the camera especially on an aircraft like that was very flexible, when I lived in Germany I talked to some ex- Heinkel and Dornier crew members about photographing over England during the Battle of Britian and one pilot told me that the navigator or bomb aimer used the Leica on board his aircraft, an other Officer told me one of his gunners did the photography.

Interesting - rxmd does your Grandfather have any photography from his time in service?

Tom

 

[johannielscom]

I know, I had a long argumentation with Jim about these lenses.

I saw both the lenses sold by Westlicht, both belonged from unofficial batch, civilian not written gray, they were n.575.601 (year 1945) and n.576.078 (year 1944).

There are various grey lenses from not official batches, here and there.
For ex. in a grouping of 13.5cm Hektors sent to Berlin on
6.1.45 (15 lenses ) on shipment 13099,
This is only months before the capitulation.
Another batch, sent to Berlin on 4.9.44 on shipment 9778.
Both "...Absolutely no mention of grey finish, many
of these grey HEFAR lenses are not written grey in the records ", Jim wrote me, "but believed genuine".

I know of registered gray Hefar 1941, very few survives, but according to Jim the "almost mythical Hefar " is the WH marked (one and only one batch), rarer than the gray, also different from all the other Hefar!
There are suggestions that Leitz held the focal length of the WH HEFAR to very tight tolerances.
This was done presumably to maintain uniform measurement results.

Cheers

P.S.: yes I have a number of these items, a very interesting field for the researcher/collector that I am.
In the case I will make you know, thank you.
---
P.P.S: your Hefar is really nice!

From the above, apparently the Leica docket is not the end-it-all of genuine lens-dom either then... I guess we will just never know for sure.


The Propaganda Kompagnien were initially made up from civilian reporters, who were drafted into specific military and journalist training. Later, other reporters voluntarily enlisted to join, since it was the most endeavouring way of journalism in the Third Reich.

Kriegsberichter were ordered to produce written and spoken journalism, as were Bildberichter who filmed, photographed and drew the hostilities. There were even stenographers in the PK's.


The '690' engraving on the lens shown most certainly is not a PK-number, the 690 Kompagnie was created in 1940, employed to the Wehrmacht Heer and joined the invasion of France. After that, the '690' engraving could mean almost anything...

 

[LeicaTom]

"AFPU" Army Film & Photography Unit, as I recall.

I've been meaning to put a uniform together for a AFPU member in North Africa, to go together with my Zeiss Super Ikonta. I need to do some more research on it though.

Very kool Rick! ~ Now I know what they called their units 🙂 thx!

I'm planning on doing a US Army reenactment uniform as one of the
"Stevens Irregulars"
maybe rank of Major or an SFC haven't decided yet? - ca. 1944/5 ~ with that light colored zipper down jacket and that funny looking knit or wool hat,
(like Ernie Pyle wore - I don't know the Army issue numbers for them)

......and running around with a chrome 45' IIIC K and a CZJ Sonnar f1.5/50 on it ............one of these days! 😀

Tom

 

[LeicaTom]

From the above, apparently the Leica docket is not the end-it-all of genuine lens-dom either then... I guess we will just never know for sure.

That item is reffering to the special ordered Grey paint Hektor 135's, (non Military lenses or some limited W.H. issues) but that's a opening up a whole other can of worms there.......... and a very complex story.

The Kriegsmarine stuff is pretty cut and dry to identify, there were very few issues during WW2 (they were very well documented) and very few have survived, so many fakes abound.

What's happening with your CZJ/LTM Sonnar's lately.......anything new on that??? 🙂

Tom