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varjag
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USB2 interface and the memory card format used would likely be obsolete by that time.jaapv said:
Leica item prices up again!
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ch1
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jaapv said:
Let's not confuse "obsolete" with "non-functional". I am sure your digital Leica M will be functional in 5 or 10 years time - but it will be woefully obsolete long before then.
Advances in image sensors alone, both in terms of increase MP's and noise reduction, will continue and they are the "heart" of the digital format. The same with storage media, interfaces etc.
Actually, I don't care. One of the great things about turning into a relatively successful old geezer is that I can choose what to not spend my money on. And a Leica is one of them! Now, a Porsche, on the other hand, hmmmm....springtime, new car...WOW!
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
varjag said:
My 78 RPM records seem to be obsolete. They sound perfect on my 1905 Maestoso Gramophone...
flamingo
flamingo
The rising prices are all the more reason to check out my recently DAG'ed vintage '65 M2 for sale right now in the 35mm Classifieds.
>>Shameless Self- BUMP<<
>>Shameless Self- BUMP<<
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varjag
Guest
Do you still use your 1985 PC XT though? 🙂
The point is not impossibilty to use, but rather the amount of inconvenience attached. You most likely would be able to use digital M 10 years from now, but it'd be pretty much on par with Sony Mavica today. As a side effect, it'd unlikely to hold value over years to same extent as film Leica bodies do.
The point is not impossibilty to use, but rather the amount of inconvenience attached. You most likely would be able to use digital M 10 years from now, but it'd be pretty much on par with Sony Mavica today. As a side effect, it'd unlikely to hold value over years to same extent as film Leica bodies do.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
varjag said:
True, but look at it this way: serial and com ports are over 25 years old, and still compatible, USB1 is compatible with USB2, if you hunt the Internet you can still buy floppy disks,CD's - what is it, 35 years?, etc. Digital quality has reached a point that the question whether is has surpassed film in quality is valid, so is unlikely to progress at the same rate as it has done up till now. Any technology, be it a steam engine or a computer or a digital camera reaches a point where any advance is marginal and I suspect that digital photography either is approaching that point exponentially or has reached it. It seems to be the perfect point in time to introduce a digital M that might break the cycle of new-better-throw-away-your-old-stuff. Let's just buy the thing and see what happens. As long as you don't sell it the resale value is immaterial.
And as for Porsches, George, don't you think the original 911 is far preferable to their current offerings?
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ywenz
Veteran
jaapv said:
Why?! :bang:
Today's 911 is faster.. safer, and more reliable than the original...
:bang:
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
ywenz said:
Too polished, too electronic, no fun. Why, the electronics won't even let you hang the tail out when cornering! 😉 I don't own a Porsche, but on my Jag I hate it when the Electronic Stabilty Control and Automatic Traction Control kick in. I don't like digital goblins telling me what to do :bang: . That goes for camera's as well.
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vizioneer
Guest
I don't like the 996 and 997 type 911's too much- competent etc. etc., but not passionate. The 993 type air-cooled, cool little car! They even had the stripped road racer RS 993. A/C was optional on that one. Nowadays, the new Cayman is very pure. Although it will have to wait until the Club Sport version comes out to be ultra-pure. But, I'd still take a 993 C4- it's a great little go-anywhere/anytime sportscar. Yah, not pure, but then again can all cars be a Lotus Elise/Exige?
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
If you want to see high prices wait till Leica starts to power down (low supply vs demand). Why buy new with so much excellent "used" gear available, hardly used in many cases. A sampling: M6 Classic mint $999, 50mmCron mint $350, 90mm-tele-M mint newest model $595.
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ch1
Guest
35mmdelux said:
Yes this is a dilemma faced by many of the traditional camera makers and is one reason why Nikon, for example, has all but abandoned film SLRs. With so many fine used Nikons around and with a very transparent used market courtesy of eBay - there is little demand for new film gear, espescially after to add-in the "digital effect".
Leica needs the digital M as a "life raft" in order to survive for a while longer. Upon introduction, it will be able to rely on a significant number of Leicaphiles purchasing one more new Leica.
But after that demand is met.....
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
copake_ham said:
Well, if only a limited number would be made and no more after, that would surely prop up the second-hand price wouldn't it? Collectors are not interested in technical obolescence 😛
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ch1
Guest
jaapv said:
Yes, agreed. But second-hand sales do not benefit Leica. I guess my overall opinion is that to me what "makes" Leica special is that it is a near-perfect film camera. It is the triumph of engineering over practicality. And there are some who are willing to pay a substantial premium for that. However, the number of them does not appear to be sufficient for the company to continue as it is.
Producing the digital M will provide the existing users with a desire to purchase one. But after that first round of demand is met, more practical users are likely to be turned off by high priced goods that a subject to rapid obsolesence.
As I said earlier (leaving aside Socke's jewel-encrusted cell phones), there really are no luxury digital goods - just various price points at which upgrades are constantly being substituted.
Ben Z
Veteran
Personally I think the Digital M has the potential to be quite a sales success. Much more than the DMR which appeals mostly to owners of R glass and R8-9 bodies (others have to buy the body too), and that's a pretty small bunch worldwide and most of them are amateurs.
True there are lots of amateurs who own Leica M and there's a core of them who will buy the Digital M as they buy every new item Leica markets. But there are also a lot of professionals who used (or still use) an M as an adjunct to their SLR or MF equipment, for certain types of application. Those guys would probably love the M ergonomics in a digital. And they are digitally-savvy enough not to summarily dismiss the Digital M based on megapixel count.
As for long-term viability or obsolescence, the only issue I see there is the possibility that far-future versions of PS might not handle the camera's output files and earlier versions of PS might not be compatible with far-future OS. Still, I recently converted a bunch of Lotus Ami-Pro (circa 1992) files to Microsoft Word using a freeware conversion program I found on a Google search. My only problem with the digital M is what will undoubtedly be a price beyond what I'm willing to pay for a hobby tool. That was the subject of this topic and it's very relevant. Leica's lens prices today are hovering near ten times that of many other brands. I have to wonder how many people in the world have the distinct set of priorities needed to pay those prices.
True there are lots of amateurs who own Leica M and there's a core of them who will buy the Digital M as they buy every new item Leica markets. But there are also a lot of professionals who used (or still use) an M as an adjunct to their SLR or MF equipment, for certain types of application. Those guys would probably love the M ergonomics in a digital. And they are digitally-savvy enough not to summarily dismiss the Digital M based on megapixel count.
As for long-term viability or obsolescence, the only issue I see there is the possibility that far-future versions of PS might not handle the camera's output files and earlier versions of PS might not be compatible with far-future OS. Still, I recently converted a bunch of Lotus Ami-Pro (circa 1992) files to Microsoft Word using a freeware conversion program I found on a Google search. My only problem with the digital M is what will undoubtedly be a price beyond what I'm willing to pay for a hobby tool. That was the subject of this topic and it's very relevant. Leica's lens prices today are hovering near ten times that of many other brands. I have to wonder how many people in the world have the distinct set of priorities needed to pay those prices.
leafy
Established
copake_ham said:
Actually there is another example - CD Transports (that means you cannot listen to it without an external DAC, which itself is another good example) that cost more than some small cars.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Hi Ben, I agree (surprise 😛 ). But speaking for myself, I certainly do not buy everything Leica puts on the market. My M6TTL was a demo, I have no ASPH lenses, all but the 135 were bought second-hand,and the 135 I only bought new because there were no used available. But I will be among the first to buy the digital M, I have saved up for it. Why? because I see the future of my photography in mostly digital for the control over the result it allows, and I want to be able to use my Leica M for that. I gave up my R-system for Canon digital and do not really regret that, but digital M? A no-brainer for me.
ywenz
Veteran
The mindset of Leica when the MP was introduced..
"We see the Leica MP as an antithesis to the trend toward digitization and automation," declared Leica CEO Hanns-Peter Cohn.
ROFL ROFL!!! 😀 😀 😀 and look at them now! 😀
I guess you can't feel sorry for them for their failures.
"We see the Leica MP as an antithesis to the trend toward digitization and automation," declared Leica CEO Hanns-Peter Cohn.
ROFL ROFL!!! 😀 😀 😀 and look at them now! 😀
I guess you can't feel sorry for them for their failures.
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Nikon Bob
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Hi Ben Z
Fewer and fewer people these days have those prorities (jobs) to pay those prices for a hobby tool. Those that do will pay more. Good luck to Leica they will need it.
Fewer and fewer people these days have those prorities (jobs) to pay those prices for a hobby tool. Those that do will pay more. Good luck to Leica they will need it.
DerekF
Established
ywenz said:
I'm not sure what this is supposed to imply, but I'm sure they still see the MP as "an antithesis to the trend toward digitization and automation," and this is still a model they sell. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the entire company is representative of said antithesis, especially considering that they already have some digital models available.
...unless this quote was taken out of context and there's more to it than this. I'm a bit too lazy to look up the original quote and its context. :angel:
ywenz
Veteran
DerekF said:
When your flagship model is the antithesis to things that is to come, and you're proud of it, then you must have been able to foresee your own impending doom.
