Leica M lubricants vs Nikon F2

[F456]

I have been using Leicas for a while now (30 years though it feels a lot less — a sign of getting old) and have often encountered advice to keep using the cameras or at least if not using them to run through the shutter speeds taking blank exposures every so often, in order to keep things from seizing up.

So it was with some surprise that when I developed an interest in older Nikons about five years ago I was told by no less an expert than Sover Wong, probably the world authority on servicing the F2-series, that the best way to preserve the shutter speeds is not only to leave the shutter uncocked but also NOT to run through the shutter speeds as it wouldn't help. Sover is so exacting in his service work that I have no reason to disbelieve him: for those who aren't acquainted with Nikon he sends each service customer video evidence of the opened camera from start to finish of the operation and he keeps on file a full history of every step of his work.

Why would there be this apparent divergence of recommendations between the two makes?

(By the way I am equally a fan of Leica and Nikon. Sometimes I feel that Nikon is less delicate than Leica (thinking rangefinder mechanism in particular; the Nikons I mention are SLRs) but Leica is faster handling, more discreet and more immediate for candid photography in public.)

Tom

 

[JMQ]

I too am a fan of the F2 and the M-series Leicas, and have enjoyed both makes when I was shooting film. Sover W had worked on my F2 many years ago, and I have the highest respect for him. The F2 is almost indestructible - I have owned F2 bodies with DP-1, DP-2, DP-12, DE-1, and Waist Level finders. IMHO, its only weakness is the foam around the removable finders disintegrating. Of course, the earliest F2 are now almost 50 years old! I do not know what lubricant Nikon used but speeds are still reliable after all these years, whereas the M-cameras require CLA and regular shutter speed exercises every so often. Leica M shutter speeds become "sticky" over time. As to storing the camera with shutter uncorked, that is advice I have been given early on and have adhered to. That should apply to both Nikons and Leica, and just about any other make.

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

I have been using Leicas for a while now (30 years though it feels a lot less — a sign of getting old) and have often encountered advice to keep using the cameras or at least if not using them to run through the shutter speeds taking blank exposures every so often, in order to keep things from seizing up.

So it was with some surprise that when I developed an interest in older Nikons about five years ago I was told by no less an expert than Sover Wong, probably the world authority on servicing the F2-series, that the best way to preserve the shutter speeds is not only to leave the shutter uncocked but also NOT to run through the shutter speeds as it wouldn't help. Sover is so exacting in his service work that I have no reason to disbelieve him: for those who aren't acquainted with Nikon he sends each service customer video evidence of the opened camera from start to finish of the operation and he keeps on file a full history of every step of his work.

Why would there be this apparent divergence of recommendations between the two makes?

(By the way I am equally a fan of Leica and Nikon. Sometimes I feel that Nikon is less delicate than Leica (thinking rangefinder mechanism in particular; the Nikons I mention are SLRs) but Leica is faster handling, more discreet and more immediate for candid photography in public.)

Tom

Logically, then, (if we take this advice literally, and cycling their shutters is detrimental) the very best way to keep your F2 in flawless working condition is quite simply: not to use it.

This seems rather pointless, to me. Unless of course you are a collector who only wants to look at cameras, and not to photograph with them.

 

[Dralowid]

My understanding of the long term storage of metal springs is that if possible they should be stored un-tensioned. So, for example, you'd leave a clock unwound.

Of course, as Brett says, this does somewhat negate the point of having the thing in the first place.

 

[David Hughes]

I don't think it matters; I've several cameras (FEDs and Leicas) from the 1920s and 1930s with focal plane shutters and they all work and I've no idea what happened to them before I got my hands on them. They may have been neglected or looked after; fired millions of shots or very few...

I do know that Leica say a regular shutter firing session is important with the modern repro "O" series and I've read the brochure and know the M2 gives unfailing reliability but that is not my experience (and I have bills to prove it).

Quite where that leaves us is beyond me.


Regards, David

 

[raydm6]

I'm sure when exercising a shutter mechanism designed for a 100,000+ cycles - the harm would be negligible.

https://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/fototech/help/howlong.html

[FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]Many of the older camera such as those produced by Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Minolta, Leica or Contax have always been synonymous with durability and reliability which we often think we missed those elements in today's modern cameras; So we used some of their camera models as a reference (doesn't mean cameras of other makes are not that durable). In this case, I would select Nikon and use their much published official "media" reference for comparison. In most of these claims, Nikon said 150,000 cycles can be achieved for all their F-series professional models (F, F2, F3, F4 and F5). While conceded a level down to serious amateurs SLR cameras (such the FM series; FE series should also provide a comfortable figure of 50,000 or so in terms of exposure cycles.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]Many of those oldies mechanical SLR or Rangefinder cameras, definitely are not designed or able to withstand modern standard target of 50,000 exposure life-cycles with their shutter units. BUT older camera has one absolute element which is heavily missed in today's camera i.e. the robust construction of the camera body structure which usually made of metal. [/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]<[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]<[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]<[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]<[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]<[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]<[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]-------[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica]Nikon F of 1959[/FONT][FONT=Arial, verdana, geneva, helvetica], now a collector's ht pick - with its dedicated F36 Motor Drive will still go with heavy shooting.[/FONT] ​

 

[lukx]

Sover has commented on this issue in a recent post (march 30th, 2021) in his Facebook group, stating the following after having conducted a long-term experiment:

"Well, here goes the theory that leaving the F2 shutter cocked for too long will alter the fast shutter speeds. This is a repeat test as I couldn't believe the tests I made in 2019-2020.
When there's uneven exposure at fast shutter speeds, it's ALWAYS the opening shutter curtain that's too slow. So the new theory is that it got slow because the F2 was over used and not because it was left cocked for too long."

So it may not be as bad as everyone seemed to think. For long term storage it might still be advantageous to leave it un-cocked. But I wouldn't sweat it if it's overnight or for a couple of days. Mine still works well on all speeds and I always forget. Winding after firing just happens automatically and I never know which shot is the last of the day.

 

[Steve Bellayr]

All cameras should be stored UN-cocked. Cocked increases tension on the shutter and cause the shutter speeds to alter.

 

[punkzter]

That was my understanding. Though, and this is slightly off-topic, the Fuji GS645 requires you to cock the shutter before folding it up. Can anyone speak to that? Are leaf shutters different than other shutters?

 

[F456]

I see your logic but I felt the comparison was as useful to users (which includes me) as it was to collectors. I suspect I'm not the only one who has quite a few cameras, with the practical result that while some camera is usually on the go others are not. I don't do enough photography to be sure every camera is in regular use — but they all get use at some time or other; it just depends on what I feel like using for a particular project or slab of time. And I was curious why Leicas might need more regular action than the Nikons.

 

[F456]

I agree with everything in your post but particularly like your typing slip where you 'uncork' the shutter. Even in photography it seems gracious living is not dead! 🙂

 

[F456]

Yes, but there is a happy medium between constant use and long-term storage, at least for me and presumably other non-pro photographers! I love my photography but perhaps have a few handfuls too many cameras to keep them all in the air at once.

Now I could thin out what I have but I know the moment I do I will suddenly want to use one that has been sold — I've tried it too many times before and at least now only have what I really enjoy using. The F2 cameras and the Ms being very high up the list, probably in top two positions.

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Regardless how you store your cameras, the shutter drum springs are tensioned above 70% at rest and never reach a fully tensioned and bound 100%, so it doesn't really matter. Just use your cameras, don't abuse them, and they will all outlive you.

Phil Forrest

 

[hap]

Regardless how you store your cameras, the shutter drum springs are tensioned above 70% at rest and never reach a fully tensioned and bound 100%, so it doesn't really matter. Just use your cameras, don't abuse them, and they will all outlive you.

Phil Forrest

Perhaps it is not advisable with cameras known to really stretch the spring to ensure highest shutter speeds....autocord comes to mind as extra winding necessary.....to keep the shutter cocked for extended periods?

 

[Phil_F_NM]

Perhaps it is not advisable with cameras known to really stretch the spring to ensure highest shutter speeds....autocord comes to mind as extra winding necessary.....to keep the shutter cocked for extended periods?

I should have added the caveat that I was speaking of focal plane shutters. Leaf shutter springs are much smaller and often not coils, but simple tensioned bars of spring steel. The real *sticking* point of leaf shutters is the blade assembly itself. All that said, a leaf shutter that has been stored cocked or uncocked for a long period of time is going to need servicing to give accurate exposure, no matter what.

Phil Forrest

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

All cameras should be stored UN-cocked. Cocked increases tension on the shutter and cause the shutter speeds to alter.

You better let Hasselblad know, then. They have always specifically advised leaving their earlier camera bodies and lenses, COCKED.

 

[lukx]

You better let Hasselblad know, then. They have always specifically advised leaving their earlier camera bodies and lenses, COCKED.

Same for my Rolleiflex SL66, which has a focal plane shutter. You can't change backs, can't insert dark slide, can't do anything really without the shutter cocked. So I think there is no one truth to be found here.

 

[SyPat]

a question that I have often asked myself without ever finding an answer is: how many axis turns do the curtains of the F2 need to go from an inert position to the optimum tension? (the repair manual says nothing).

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

a question that I have often asked myself without ever finding an answer is: how many axis turns do the curtains of the F2 need to go from an inert position to the optimum tension? (the repair manual says nothing).

Does it mention curtain travel times? Around this time Japanese makers, increasingly, were beginning to include a specification for these. If so—assuming a correctly cleaned and lubricated mechanism—the correct tension is that which yields the appropriate elapsed time of each curtain across the gate.

In the absence of equipment able to measure travel time I would start off with settings that see an even, accurate full gate exposure time (Ie 1/60, you are eliminating slit maladjustments from the equation this way) and that should get you in the ballpark hopefully. Then check faster and slower speeds and fine tune *consistent* exposure across the gate at 1/500 & 1/1000, before addressing slit adjustment if needed. Not as precise as Eg a Kyoritsu tester but if you have a bit of experience ought to give a very usable shutter with reasonable times. Not having worked on F/F2 yet can't be more specific, sorry.

 

[SyPat]

Does it mention curtain travel times? Around this time Japanese makers, increasingly, were beginning to include a specification for these. If so—assuming a correctly cleaned and lubricated mechanism—the correct tension is that which yields the appropriate elapsed time of each curtain across the gate. .

For the Nikon F, the manual says 14.5 milliseconds at 1/60, but the much more laconic F2 manual says nothing.