pb908
Well-known
Impossible...!!!!
I got some questions from people who read my previous thread regarding my Titanium Shutter Leica IIIC :
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105382
they asked me if it is possible to replace titanium shutter on Leica M body. I didn't know the answer that time as I don't have any M body for CLA. (I had just received a nice M2 off ebay, but that was just being cla-ed).
later, a friend asked me to CLA his broken M3, actually it has lot of problem as well as broken curtain, and he sent it along with an old Nikon F to be junked for this project. what a nice weekend project then.
after opening the shell and top cover of M3, I start to remove old curtains from M3 and clean all the mechanism. replacing curtains should be easy as I have done it several time. then I install the titanium curtains there.
the good news is :
Nikon F Titanium Shutter is EXACT size as the one on Leica M !!!
but then, after few trials, I got stuck, I try another approach, and again stuck. I'll let you know the facts and the problem :
1. Titanium shutter is so thin (and STRONG), imagine your curtain is just as thin as alumunium foil or a thin sheet of plastic.
2. the original leica curtain is somehow thick enough, made from silk and rubber.
3. leica have many tight tolerance regarding this curtains replacement.
The problem is this different curtain thickness makes the titanium shutter entering the aperture window to fast compare to the normal curtains.
assume, if I set all mechanism to the unwinded condition, and put my 2nd curtain end to the most right area blocking the film aperture (camera facing me) and glue it at this position.
when I wind the shutter, all curtain move to the left and winded properly, but when I set shutter to 1s, and press the shutter, this will happen :
1. 1st curtain move to the right, no issue.
2. the slow speed escapement will hold 2nd curtain for 1second (and at the same time, the 2nd curtain move slowly due to the latching cam almost disengages). In normal leica curtain, this movement is still not entering the film aperture, but with Titanium shutter, the curtain move and ENTERING the film aperture window !!!
3. when the timer is complete, the cam release 2nd curtain and the curtain move to the right, no issue.
point no2 above, happen due to the thickness difference. when i wind normal leica shutter, the winding become bigger and bigger, this increase the diameter of the winding, and as well the length of the curtain being winded. that's why, in leica curtains, this have no problem, but with titanium curtain, due to the thin material, the winding diameter is not increased as it supposed to be, so if I compare both, with the same winding mechanism applied, the leica curtain will have more length compare to the titanium one.
in my example, I set the 2nd curtain to the most right and glued it in this position, the result is during the slow speed escapement work, the 2nd curtain enter the film aperture.
if I set the 2nd curtain in the most left (winded position + have enough space for the slow speed escapement to work before entering the film aperture), and glued from there, the problem will become on the right side which 2nd curtain is not close completely (due to lesser distance it produce from the thin winding).
several of my option (some tested, some doesn't) :
1. adding some layer of tapes in the drum. this work to fix the curtains movement, but then the drum become bigger and can't be covered by the housing cover => not a solution
2. set the brake to brake later (for the curtain to travel longer) => not a solution, I disassembled and set it to the maximum distance, still doesn't enough.
3. thicken the 2nd titanium curtain (maybe by gluing curtain silk in one side of it), but to get the same thickness will be a problem.
I have test by adding few layer of thin tape to the 2nd curtain and it did work as it should be, at least the theory is working.
4. use normal silk/rubber for 2nd curtain, only one titanium curtain in 1st curtain. not a real titanium leica then
5. all curtain use normal silk/rubber curtains
then this become normal leica
any idea ?
I got some questions from people who read my previous thread regarding my Titanium Shutter Leica IIIC :
http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105382
they asked me if it is possible to replace titanium shutter on Leica M body. I didn't know the answer that time as I don't have any M body for CLA. (I had just received a nice M2 off ebay, but that was just being cla-ed).
later, a friend asked me to CLA his broken M3, actually it has lot of problem as well as broken curtain, and he sent it along with an old Nikon F to be junked for this project. what a nice weekend project then.
after opening the shell and top cover of M3, I start to remove old curtains from M3 and clean all the mechanism. replacing curtains should be easy as I have done it several time. then I install the titanium curtains there.
the good news is :
Nikon F Titanium Shutter is EXACT size as the one on Leica M !!!
but then, after few trials, I got stuck, I try another approach, and again stuck. I'll let you know the facts and the problem :
1. Titanium shutter is so thin (and STRONG), imagine your curtain is just as thin as alumunium foil or a thin sheet of plastic.
2. the original leica curtain is somehow thick enough, made from silk and rubber.
3. leica have many tight tolerance regarding this curtains replacement.
The problem is this different curtain thickness makes the titanium shutter entering the aperture window to fast compare to the normal curtains.
assume, if I set all mechanism to the unwinded condition, and put my 2nd curtain end to the most right area blocking the film aperture (camera facing me) and glue it at this position.
when I wind the shutter, all curtain move to the left and winded properly, but when I set shutter to 1s, and press the shutter, this will happen :
1. 1st curtain move to the right, no issue.
2. the slow speed escapement will hold 2nd curtain for 1second (and at the same time, the 2nd curtain move slowly due to the latching cam almost disengages). In normal leica curtain, this movement is still not entering the film aperture, but with Titanium shutter, the curtain move and ENTERING the film aperture window !!!
3. when the timer is complete, the cam release 2nd curtain and the curtain move to the right, no issue.
point no2 above, happen due to the thickness difference. when i wind normal leica shutter, the winding become bigger and bigger, this increase the diameter of the winding, and as well the length of the curtain being winded. that's why, in leica curtains, this have no problem, but with titanium curtain, due to the thin material, the winding diameter is not increased as it supposed to be, so if I compare both, with the same winding mechanism applied, the leica curtain will have more length compare to the titanium one.
in my example, I set the 2nd curtain to the most right and glued it in this position, the result is during the slow speed escapement work, the 2nd curtain enter the film aperture.
if I set the 2nd curtain in the most left (winded position + have enough space for the slow speed escapement to work before entering the film aperture), and glued from there, the problem will become on the right side which 2nd curtain is not close completely (due to lesser distance it produce from the thin winding).
several of my option (some tested, some doesn't) :
1. adding some layer of tapes in the drum. this work to fix the curtains movement, but then the drum become bigger and can't be covered by the housing cover => not a solution
2. set the brake to brake later (for the curtain to travel longer) => not a solution, I disassembled and set it to the maximum distance, still doesn't enough.
3. thicken the 2nd titanium curtain (maybe by gluing curtain silk in one side of it), but to get the same thickness will be a problem.
I have test by adding few layer of thin tape to the 2nd curtain and it did work as it should be, at least the theory is working.
4. use normal silk/rubber for 2nd curtain, only one titanium curtain in 1st curtain. not a real titanium leica then
5. all curtain use normal silk/rubber curtains
then this become normal leica
any idea ?
ferider
Veteran
Very interesting. I like option 3. How about a double 2nd curtain ?
pb908
Well-known
ferider, I have not yet to test option no3, as I have no New silk curtain. the one I ordered from aki asahi is on the way.
if the silk curtain glued to the titanium one, I don't know what will happen during winding/exposure as some of the curtain area will be squised and some of them will be flattened. I prefer option 4, just for the sake of simplicity..
if the silk curtain glued to the titanium one, I don't know what will happen during winding/exposure as some of the curtain area will be squised and some of them will be flattened. I prefer option 4, just for the sake of simplicity..
t6un
Established
Thanks a lot for trying it out for us. I was worried too that thickness can be a problem, but I thought mostly about the other side , where the ribbons of the second curtain must pass under the ends of the metal bar of a fully open first curtain.
Of your choices I personally would choose the fourth option. No one will ever see its not a real titanium Leica since I always wind the shutter right after the exposure
BTW, the curtains in the soviet 6x6 format camera Kiev-88 (Saljut) are of corrugated stainless steel, so their thickness may (or may not) be a better fit...
Of your choices I personally would choose the fourth option. No one will ever see its not a real titanium Leica since I always wind the shutter right after the exposure
BTW, the curtains in the soviet 6x6 format camera Kiev-88 (Saljut) are of corrugated stainless steel, so their thickness may (or may not) be a better fit...
rogerzilla
Well-known
What about weighting the curtains slightly to slow them down? Lead solder wire at the leading edge would do it.
I like the hardware hacking thing; I once fixed a Minoltina-S rangefinder with ruined silvering by using a small piece of the reflective security film sold for van windows. It worked perfectly, and the camera took great photos, until the leaf shutter died.
I like the hardware hacking thing; I once fixed a Minoltina-S rangefinder with ruined silvering by using a small piece of the reflective security film sold for van windows. It worked perfectly, and the camera took great photos, until the leaf shutter died.
BobYIL
Well-known
pb908... Although I can not find out the exact thickness, the indentations on the titanium foil of my F3 seems deeper than those of my F... the weight could be not different but when wound the total thickness may... This is one possibility (if you sacrifice a scrap F3).. The other one is to wind something on the drum, glue (or fix) and then glue the 2nd curtain so you reach the exact diameter like the silk-rubber curtain.. Hmm?
Bob
Bob
pb908
Well-known
Rogerzilla, the weigth is not a problem, the problem is the length of the titanium curtain produce by the winding is less compare to normal one, this makes uncomplete blocking of the film aperture.
BobYil, I have tried to put tapes on the drum, test, add more layer, test, and by the time I get the nice thickness, the mirror box cover will not fit in it. it takes much effort to add one layer of tapes around the drum, and at the end it didn't work out.
i'll try option 3 this day, maybe with small ribbon, 2 pcs, one in the top and one in bottom side, enough to thicken the winding but i hope will not add much stiffness to the titanium curtain.
BobYil, I have tried to put tapes on the drum, test, add more layer, test, and by the time I get the nice thickness, the mirror box cover will not fit in it. it takes much effort to add one layer of tapes around the drum, and at the end it didn't work out.
i'll try option 3 this day, maybe with small ribbon, 2 pcs, one in the top and one in bottom side, enough to thicken the winding but i hope will not add much stiffness to the titanium curtain.
pb908
Well-known
it is possible.
BobYIL
Well-known
maddoc
... likes film again.
So you are now the owner of the ONLY M3-T in the world !! Seriously, a good hack !
I have a titanium-F shutter modified Nikon S2, the job was supposedly easy to do in this case.
Seriously, a good hack ! I have a titanium-F shutter modified Nikon S2, the job was supposedly easy to do in this case.
huntjump
Well-known
ooo mysterious..."it is possible".
more details + photos
more details + photos
Phil_F_NM
Camera hacker
I was thinking that adhesive copper tape to build up the distance under the shutter. Perhaps even edge "straps" that would add a few hundredths of a millimeter as well as some weight.
Good luck! I can't wait to see how this turns out.
Phil Forrest
Good luck! I can't wait to see how this turns out.
Phil Forrest
menos
Veteran
Mmmh - this is interesting - (subscribing to the thread…)
pb908
Well-known
not all problem can be solve with a tape
and yes, I hope I'm the first one having M3-T in the world.
the answer is there, hidden on the options I wrote before. I hope you see it from the picture.
and yes, I hope I'm the first one having M3-T in the world.
the answer is there, hidden on the options I wrote before. I hope you see it from the picture.
t6un
Established
You added some tape to the end of second curtain? I would be very grateful if you described what you did in more detail and pictures, if possible. Or for any tips regarding replacing the curtains of an M. (So far I've only adjusted the position of the first curtain of my m4 on it's drum, but it's about time to replace them both... )
Did you replace curtains together with ribbons and stuff or only curtains themselves?
Did you replace curtains together with ribbons and stuff or only curtains themselves?
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Moriturii
Well-known
You should make a big proper guide for eeeeeeeeveryone to do it
...or get payed for doing it to other peoples M's! Business isn't it.
...or get payed for doing it to other peoples M's! Business isn't it.
hlockwood
Well-known
"3. thicken the 2nd titanium curtain (maybe by gluing curtain silk in one side of it), but to get the same thickness will be a problem.
I have test by adding few layer of thin tape to the 2nd curtain and it did work as it should be, at least the theory is working."
How about spray coating that side with a flexible compound, the thickness of which could gradually be increased to the requisite level? For uniformity, this would have to be done on a larger sheet prior to cutting to size.
What a fascinating project! Leica should join in the effort and support this work.
Harry
I have test by adding few layer of thin tape to the 2nd curtain and it did work as it should be, at least the theory is working."
How about spray coating that side with a flexible compound, the thickness of which could gradually be increased to the requisite level? For uniformity, this would have to be done on a larger sheet prior to cutting to size.
What a fascinating project! Leica should join in the effort and support this work.
Harry
pb908
Well-known
as I said before, no tape is used. If you take a look the curtain carefully (it show both side of 2nd curtain), no tape or additional layer of anything, both curtains purely titanium one. And yes, I replace as a set (ribbon+curtain from nikon F).