Leica M4 in 2021?

[meandihagee]

Hello,

I guess it's finally happening. After having 3 beautiful cameras dying on me for electronic reasons, I guess the only sensible thing to do is to invest in a something that is still *serviceable*.

Would that be the case with a Leica M4? Or is it a better idea to look at the M4-2 or M4-P?

Would a "newer" camera make a difference on long-term perspective? Also, is there a real difference between the guts of the 3 models and their prospect of life?

PS not going for the M6 for budget reasons

Any thoughts? Thanks

 

[sanmich]

The M4 is a great camera with a known issue of catastrophic shutter curtain failure.
Unless you really like the more classic look/feel, maybe the M4-P is a better option (younger too)

 

[Tom R]

The M4 is a great camera with a known issue of catastrophic shutter curtain failure.
Unless you really like the more classic look/feel, maybe the M4-P is a better option (younger too)

I use two M4-P's with a suite of Leitz lenses, 28-50mm. These are mechanically dependable and fairly serviceable. On that last point, about two years ago I wanted to replace the film pressure plate on one of these bodies because I had concerns about excessive scratches. Long story short, the folks at Leica, New Jersey informed me that that part number was no longer being manufactured and suggested that I try online sellers.

Fortunately, it turned out that the problem was with the lab I'd been using.

Point is: I don't know that it's totally "serviceable," but for the past twenty years I've only needed the occasional CLA.

T

 

[JeffS7444]

Leica M4 is alright, and your best bet is a camera which has been serviced within the last decade or so. Original vulcanite body covering is brittle and easily chipped, so buying a camera which has had this replaced with new 3rd party leatherette may not be a bad idea, especially if you can buy it at a better price as a result.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

I personally prefer the M4, having owned M4-2 & M4P as well. I don't care for (or need) all the extra framelines. I find them distracting. You can read opinions about the changes..(steel gears etc) in the M4-2/P.. and the discussions that the latter ones weren't made as well. I had DAG adapt mine so i can use the Leicavit...& it's good for another 50 yrs. In practical terms they're all workhorses. The 4-2 / 4-P are often cheaper, but I prefer the black paint 4..... & there are some virtually unused black chrome anniversarys that sometimes sell at reasonable prices.

 

[hap]

I have M3, M4-P, M5. the M3 and M5 are works of art. However, the M4-P is no slouch and it is useful and serviceable. Asking Leica to solve problems on older mechanical cameras is questionable, especially when there are many competent techs who can fix or CLA an M4-P. there are certain "rock star" techs consistently mentioned on this forum site who can pretty much fix anything.....and have access to parts.

 

[keytarjunkie]

There's a difference in the guts of the M4 vs the later M4-2 and M4-P. From Cameraquest:

Starting with the M4-2, Leitz changed the M camera design philosophy and internal construction. Originally, the M's were all designed to be adjusted to the Nth degree in order to attain the highest standards.

With the M4-2, Leitz started shifting to a "right or replace" construction philosophy. Adjustments starting
disappearing. The new way was to simply replace out of tolerance part with a new one which was within tolerance.

The claim is this makes for a stronger, more reliable camera since adjustments can no longer go out of
whack. But of course, they neglect to mention the overwhelming consideration here is lowering cost!

The "old construction" proponents like myself argue that individual adjustments produce overall tighter tolerances and a better working camera. ​

I wouldn't worry too much about the long term serviceability of any of these three cameras. In the US, Europe, and Japan, there is a wealth of repair-people with parts and technical skills to fix just about anything, as long as you're willing to wait a few months. Your best bet is to pay more for a camera that's been recently serviced (with a receipt). But if long term reliability is your primary concern, I can tell you that my experience is the Nikon RF and SLR cameras are much more reliable after 50-70 years than the Leicas (and cheaper too). YMMV.

 

[Andy Kibber]

My suspicion is that 40+ years on, the differences between individual cameras will be greater than the differences than between the models generally. I'd just get the camera in the best shape, regardless of model.

And regarding serviceability, I haven't had occasion to hire a Leica repairperson in over a decade, but from reading this forum it appears there are fewer folks working on Leicas now than ever, and those who do the work are in high demand. If something goes wrong with your M4/M4-2/M4-P, you may be waiting months to get it fixed.

 

[Andy Kibber]

But if long term reliability is your primary concern, I can tell you that my experience is the Nikon RF and SLR cameras are much more reliable after 50-70 years than the Leicas (and cheaper too). YMMV.

Agreed. I'd add Pentax SLRs too. But I understand they don't scratch the Leica itch. And of course you'll need a new set of lenses.

 

[twvancamp]

I bought an M4 in 2020 and it's a great camera. However, I'm preparing to sell it and keep my M4-P because I use flash quite a bit. The M4 feels noticeably nicer, both the advance and the overall weight/finish so it's a bit sad to part with.

 

[Range-rover]

No, get a Nikon SP it's a great camera.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

What was the reason for previous cameras to go out of service?
Just an age or due to use?
If you are one of the few remaining active film users and tend to use one camera, do not expect any film M to last long. It will need service and even parts. Parts might takes months to find.
It isn't big difference between film Ms, in this regard. They are all depends on Leica parts from Leica.
Nobody knows for how long Leica will provide parts.

From my personal experience M3 SS was build way better than M4-2. I think M2, M4 are close. Here is nothing wrong with M4-2, M4-P, but IMO the difference is quite substantial while you holding them in hands...

 

[Sarcophilus Harrisii]

The M4 is a great camera with a known issue of catastrophic shutter curtain failure.
Unless you really like the more classic look/feel, maybe the M4-P is a better option (younger too)

Could you elaborate, please? What, in particular, fails?
Thanks.
Brett

 

[hap]

What was the reason for previous cameras to go out of service?
Just an age or due to use?
If you are one of the few remaining active film users and tend to use one camera, do not expect any film M to last long. It will need service and even parts. Parts might takes months to find.
It isn't big difference between film Ms, in this regard. They are all depends on Leica parts from Leica.
Nobody knows for how long Leica will provide parts.

From my personal experience M3 SS was build way better than M4-2. I think M2, M4 are close. Here is nothing wrong with M4-2, M4-P, but IMO the difference is quite substantial while you holding them in hands...

Tha's true. But functionally, hard to make the case of significant inferiority.

there are lots of mechanical cameras to choose from that aren't Leicas. A well kept Nikon F SLR might satisfy? Kind of bomb proof unless abused. More and cheaper lenses but still quality. Just a thought.

It's also true that there are issues with demand for vintage camera repairs and supply of repair technicians. However, the demand seems to be mostly with specific individuals and waiting times can be long. So if you can find a local competent repair person, that should be adequate for many fully mechanical brands.

 

[Deleted member 65559]

Could you elaborate, please? What, in particular, fails?
Thanks.
Brett

I'll be interested in the answer too Brett. In decades of using (not just owning) Leica Ms (M2,M4,M4-2,M4-P, M6, MP). I never once had one fail. Never once sent one for service, (& had accurate exposures with Kodachrome). The only camera I ever had serviced is my current M4 black paint, that immediately went to Don G (because the slow shutter speeds lagged). IMO historically, the Leica M line has been remarkably reliable.

 

[oldwino]

The M4 is a great camera with a known issue of catastrophic shutter curtain failure.
Unless you really like the more classic look/feel, maybe the M4-P is a better option (younger too)

First I've heard of that. The M5s had shutter issues on some of the early SNs, shutter brakes, I believe.

 

[Ko.Fe.]

Tha's true. But functionally, hard to make the case of significant inferiority.

there are lots of mechanical cameras to choose from that aren't Leicas. A well kept Nikon F SLR might satisfy? Kind of bomb proof unless abused. More and cheaper lenses but still quality. Just a thought.

It's also true that there are issues with demand for vintage camera repairs and supply of repair technicians. However, the demand seems to be mostly with specific individuals and waiting times can be long. So if you can find a local competent repair person, that should be adequate for many fully mechanical brands.

This is what I was going to mention. Nikon mechanical SLRs seems to be built to last more than M.
I purchased very cheap F2 to use for parts. It has well worn-out exterior. But it came in working order.
Nikon F CLA under fifty minutes.
https://youtu.be/Pcw1k0VHTtA

I sold it, but I have working Nikkormat and EM.

And for Leica, I have IIIc, those are far less expensive in service and less complicated in build.

I'm keeping M4-2 just because prices keeps on driven up and because one day global shutter conversion kit is going to be available.
This is going to be better than any digital M, since it is going to be not Leica labeled components, but direct manufacturers.

 

[sanmich]

Could you elaborate, please? What, in particular, fails?
Thanks.
Brett

The curtain dislodges from the metallic band at its end. Apparently something was changed from the M2 in the type of attachment and it was a bad idea.
Mine failed that way. DAG repaired it (replaced the curtains with new ones) and told me that any M4 have high chances to fail that way. Since then, I've seen people asking about such a failure once or twice on the web.

In itself, it's not a reason not to buy an M4 which is an excellent camera, but the idea of a model being completely immune to very expensive failures sounds kind of wrong to me....

 

[valdas]

This is what I was going to mention. Nikon mechanical SLRs seems to be built to last more than M.
I purchased very cheap F2 to use for parts. It has well worn-out exterior. But it came in working order.
Nikon F CLA under fifty minutes.

Yes, but I have just sold my F2. Reason? Maybe it is on OK camera for a former athlete, but I am not into weight lifting anymore 🙂 I bought M4 and I am very happy...

 

[Mark C]

M4 is great and would probably be my first choice. I ended up switching to M4-2 many years ago only because I used the hot shoe for a flash sensor for a job at the time. Much as I miss the slightly nicer built M4's, I have never had a problem with an M4-2 in decades of use. Never had one serviced.

I don't personally like the later frame lines that came in during the M4-P, but many people do. That should probably be your biggest determining factor. M4 has a slightly less fussy rangefinder patch, but also is older so more likely to have finder deterioration. All are great, reliable cameras.