Leica M4 Shutter capping

[Joe878]

Stupid question -- is this happening at all shutter speeds or only the faster ones, like 1/500 and 1/1000?

I looked closely at both your pictures -- sorry but I can't see anything going on in the second photo (with the streetcar). Maybe shoot into a completely blue sky and that would more clearly show the issue to us.

Yes, it only happens at 1/500 and 1/1000, it also almost exclusively happens vertically. Now the second photo with the street car if you look at the ground you should be able to see the darker bands. Here’s a link to two higher resolution photos. Image , Streetcar image

 

[Joe878]

The film is held between the pressure plate and film gate, the part that lets light through to the film. If this is rough say through corrosion it may damage the film. You should be able to feel this part or even the film to see if it is actually scratched.

I think that’s fine because I never get scratches unless the film is developed by a lab.

 

[Joe878]

Whomever has 'serviced the camera twice' has done an awful job. It looks to me like you need a good shutter overhaul, as well as probably other things need adjustment. Send the camera to someone like DAG or even Leica USA and have it overhauled.

G

--- add on:
Curiosity inspired me to send Leica USA a note to request whether they still do, and what a complete shutter overhaul on "my beloved old Leica M4 body" would cost as it is creating striations across the negative in recent rolls of film. I'm interested to hear if they still support servicing the M4. 🙂

I thought about sending it to Leica if they still service the Original M4. I heard they take about 8+ months sometimes to get your gear back though.

 

[Godfrey]

It never hurts to call and find out if they're offering the service ... Leica USA Contact page: Contact | Leica Camera US

I've personally have never had a repair or service sent to Leica USA take more than 6-8 weeks. Not that I've sent too many cameras in for repair, but the doom and gloom posts about long, long delays that I hear from various forums and lists seem a bit over-stated to me.

G

 

[Ororaro]

I see nothing wrong on these 2 photos.

Shutter capping can be fixed by two screws…

Do you have better examples?

 

[Ororaro]

The “banding” on your examples seems to be running horizontally on the film.

Usually banding will appear as vertical bands across the image; see it as a line running from a top sprocket hole and reaching a bottom sprocket hole.

Your problem here is not banding, and without better examples it will be hard for anyone to help you out…

 

[Ororaro]

In my post above, “banding” I meant shutter capping.

I see your horizontal lines, but they are not shutter capping.

 

[Joe878]

The “banding” on your examples seems to be running horizontally on the film.

Usually banding will appear as vertical bands across the image; see it as a line running from a top sprocket hole and reaching a bottom sprocket hole.

Your problem here is not banding, and without better examples it will be hard for anyone to help you out…

I have higher resolution images

 

[Rob-F]

DAG or Sherry at Golden Touch look no further as the best around and factory trained by Leica.

I've used both before with complete satisfaction. This is the first mention of Sherry here in a long time. I hope she's still in good health and still repairing Leicas. None of us are getting any younger.

I've studied the photos to the best of my ability. The top of the tall building shot shows some darkening in the sky, but that, I feel sure, is because the sky is darker at higher angles. in the enlarged view that just shows the lower part, it looks darker at the bottom, which doesn't happen in the un-enlarged view. So I think the process of scanning for posting seems to be causing problems that are not in the film. Then again, in the enlarged view I can see a scratch in the sky area to the right of the building. I believe that's in the film, but that wouldn't be caused by the shutter; more likely a scratch. But it doesn't appear to run the length of the film, as it would if caused by the pressure plate, the gate, or grit lodged in the camera. (The gate is simply the window that defines the edges of the picture.) It could have happened in the lab, or in later handling.

There's a dark streak at the top left, in the sky, in the shot of the building, and a dark spot halfway down. I don't know what could cause that; but I don't see how the shutter could cause it. The darkening at the ends doesn't happen in the street scene. I just don't see any kind of unevenness of exposure along the length of the shutter's travel. I don't even see why the second shop agreed there is a capping problem. Maybe some more photos will help to either show the problem, or show there is no problem. I agree that a shot of the plain blue sky would be useful. Make it horizontal, with a 50mm or longer lens, to take in a small, uniform area of sky, because the sky is darker at higher elevations. I would use a new, not outdated roll that has been stored in a cool place. Maybe try a different lab, too.

 

[Ororaro]

My personal conclusion, according to these two samples, and especially the first one, is improper development.
Rolling a tank, or using the stick in a paterson tank, or machine transport with bad chemicals, will do this.

 

[Ororaro]

The second image in your link is definitely a problem involving development.

 

[JeffS7444]

This doesn't look like shutter capping, but I'm not sure what it is. Photo of skyscraper shows arc-shaped artifacts in the sky which look more like a film/processing issue.

 

[35photo]

The second image in your link is definitely a problem involving development.

Yeah, I think you are probably right, doesn't seem like camera problem to me. Its pretty east to look at the shutter yourself and see how its looking.

 

[Godfrey]

I thought about sending it to Leica if they still service the Original M4. I heard they take about 8+ months sometimes to get your gear back though.

Hi @Joe878

...
--- add on:
Curiosity inspired me to send Leica USA a note to request whether they still do, and what a complete shutter overhaul on "my beloved old Leica M4 body" would cost as it is creating striations across the negative in recent rolls of film. I'm interested to hear if they still support servicing the M4. 🙂

I received an email response this morning to my Leica USA Service query from Monday about M4 shutter service.

The service advisor said that Leica is currently awaiting re-stock on an essential part for the M4 (and a couple other models), for which they do not have a delivery date promised by their supplier at the present time. They are asking all inquirers for service to hold on sending in cameras, as a result, until they have a good date when the part will be available, and are keeping an inquiry list so they can contact anyone who needs a service as soon as the parts are available.

From what was said, I am pretty sure that all their Leica M film camera service is now only provided by the factory service center in Germany, and the estimates and time-for-service is set by the factory service center only. The note did say that the overall estimate for service time on film M bodies is approximately 12 months from estimate approval, which says to me that they're recently getting a pretty good bit of film M service work and are somewhat minimally staffed to handle it.

So ... a delay in getting started due to a parts shortage, and a relatively long service time due to being over-booked and understaffed. It would likely be best to talk with Don Goldberg or Sherry Krauter about having the camera checked and serviced correctly if you're interested in pursuing this; they might have parts in stock and/or be willing to work with what you have a little more liberally than the Leica factory service center would. Factory service centers usually follow a pretty strict protocol about doing 'complete' jobs with fresh parts for common wear items, whether specifically needed or not ...

(Which reminds me that I really should have my M4-2 shutter overhauled someday soonish, but I might consider picking up another film M body so as not to be completely without one for an extended time...)

G

 

[Ororaro]

Yeah, I think you are probably right, doesn't seem like camera problem to me. Its pretty east to look at the shutter yourself and see how its looking.

The easiest way to see how a shutter behaves, thanks to modernity, is to record it with your phone in Slow Motion.

leave camera on a table, shine a good light on it, and film it from
above in Slow motion. Start with 1 second, on 60th, 500th and 1000th. The video will show you all there is to be seen. This way capping and any irregularity will show up right away.

 

[Joe878]

The easiest way to see how a shutter behaves, thanks to modernity, is to record it with your phone in Slow Motion.

leave camera on a table, shine a good light on it, and film it from
above in Slow motion. Start with 1 second, on 60th, 500th and 1000th. The video will show you all there is to be seen. This way capping and any irregularity will show up right away.

I’ll try that tonight.

 

[Joe878]

Hi @Joe878


I received an email response this morning to my Leica USA Service query from Monday about M4 shutter service.

The service advisor said that Leica is currently awaiting re-stock on an essential part for the M4 (and a couple other models), for which they do not have a delivery date promised by their supplier at the present time. They are asking all inquirers for service to hold on sending in cameras, as a result, until they have a good date when the part will be available, and are keeping an inquiry list so they can contact anyone who needs a service as soon as the parts are available.

From what was said, I am pretty sure that all their Leica M film camera service is now only provided by the factory service center in Germany, and the estimates and time-for-service is set by the factory service center only. The note did say that the overall estimate for service time on film M bodies is approximately 12 months from estimate approval, which says to me that they're recently getting a pretty good bit of film M service work and are somewhat minimally staffed to handle it.

So ... a delay in getting started due to a parts shortage, and a relatively long service time due to being over-booked and understaffed. It would likely be best to talk with Don Goldberg or Sherry Krauter about having the camera checked and serviced correctly if you're interested in pursuing this; they might have parts in stock and/or be willing to work with what you have a little more liberally than the Leica factory service center would. Factory service centers usually follow a pretty strict protocol about doing 'complete' jobs with fresh parts for common wear items, whether specifically needed or not ...

(Which reminds me that I really should have my M4-2 shutter overhauled someday soonish, but I might consider picking up another film M body so as not to be completely without one for an extended time...)

G

Thanks for the info, I’ve heard about sherry Krauter that’s most likely my next move to get in contact with her. It’s funny you mention picking up another M body, I was thinking about doing just the same rate now.

 

[Godfrey]

Thanks for the info, I’ve heard about sherry Krauter that’s most likely my next move to get in contact with her. It’s funny you mention picking up another M body, I was thinking about doing just the same rate now.

Sherry Krauter contact info: SherryKrauter.com

I've mostly had Leica service work done by Don Goldberg (Featured Products), but both he and Sherry Krauter have been in the business for a long while and both have a good reputation. I find it best to email service enquiries first with either.

Buying another M body ... It's something I've been musing about for a while. However, I have the digital capture range covered nicely with both M10 Monochrom and M10-R, my M4-2 is working fine (albeit I know the shutter is slightly off at 1/500 and 1/1000 sec), and the IIIc (as well as the profusion of Kodak Retinas, Voigtländer Vito II and Vitesse, Minox 35, and Rollei 35S.

Whether I need another M body in light of my overload of good 35mm film cameras is truly questionable, but of course a new M-A or MP would be delightful, regardless. 😉 While I can afford the extravagant excess, I am not yet certain that I'd feel good about it.

G

 

[ddutchison2]

Maybe try posting your question to FaceBook's Vintage Camera Repair group, there are several retired professional camera techs active there who might have much more direct knowledge of this specific problem.

Log into Facebook

Log into Facebook to start sharing and connecting with your friends, family, and people you know.

www.facebook.com

 

[Mute-on]

Sherry Krauter contact info: SherryKrauter.com

I've mostly had Leica service work done by Don Goldberg (Featured Products), but both he and Sherry Krauter have been in the business for a long while and both have a good reputation. I find it best to email service enquiries first with either.

Buying another M body ... It's something I've been musing about for a while. However, I have the digital capture range covered nicely with both M10 Monochrom and M10-R, my M4-2 is working fine (albeit I know the shutter is slightly off at 1/500 and 1/1000 sec), and the IIIc (as well as the profusion of Kodak Retinas, Voigtländer Vito II and Vitesse, Minox 35, and Rollei 35S.

Whether I need another M body in light of my overload of good 35mm film cameras is truly questionable, but of course a new M-A or MP would be delightful, regardless. 😉 While I can afford the extravagant excess, I am not yet certain that I'd feel good about it.

G

It’s possible that with a selection of camera systems, yours might be a special case, Godfrey 😉 (thought I’d never discourage anyone from acquiring another Leica …. ). However, if one is invested in a single system, and particularly Leica film cameras, I think a second body is not only desirable but absolutely necessary.

I used to travel overseas with film (before CT scanners) and would always take two Leica M bodies. Mine are between 20 and 60 years old. On one trip to Japan the M2 suffered a mechanical lockup (later easily repaired by a technician - the shutter guide felt had become entangled in the shutter roller). I still had my MP functioning perfectly and used that for the rest of the trip.

The point is that for a film Leica M body, they are all getting on (like many of us), and sometimes things just go wrong. Notwithstanding Leica’s hysterically long repair times (for anything, not just film bodies), a backup for equipment that can require repair taking weeks or months only seems sensible.

@Joe878 , you might consider acquiring another M4 to keep yours company if you have the opportunity. The M4-P has the advantage (over the earlier M4) of having a steel frameline mask, not a glass sandwich frameline mask (like the earlier M2/M3) that can delaminate, affecting the focus patch.

All the best.

J