cfritze
Established
Haven't held an M8 yet, so no immediate ability to test this myself, but with regard to the original M8 shutter: I read reports that there's significant vibration due to higher shutter tension than the upgraded 8.2 shutter. Some users report less vibration after the upgrade and improved ability to shoot at longer exposure times.
Does this make sense? I construe the reports of vibration and "shutter crashing" to be an effect that happens at the end of the shutter's travel - AFTER the image has been acquired - thus not affecting image sharpness. Does that sound right, or is there significant vibration on release?
I ask because maybe this won't be an academic question for me soon...
Does this make sense? I construe the reports of vibration and "shutter crashing" to be an effect that happens at the end of the shutter's travel - AFTER the image has been acquired - thus not affecting image sharpness. Does that sound right, or is there significant vibration on release?
I ask because maybe this won't be an academic question for me soon...
benmacphoto
Well-known
Hmmmmm, I have shot my M8 at 1/8 and 1/15 handheld and the images are tack sharp. People that complain about the noise and shutter vibration need to go out and shoot more.
Ben Z
Veteran
I had my M8 upgraded with the new shutter. I was told by a Leica official that it should be more durable, which is the reason I did it. It does feel a little less thwacky now but the thwack always came after the shutter fired so I can't say I sense any improvement in camera blur (which was never a problem with the original shutter). I wouldn't be afraid of the original M8 shutter from a vibration standpoint, only from a durability standpoint.
cfritze
Established
appreciate the comments. Thanks Bens!
f16sunshine
Moderator
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Vibration maybe. Noise, no. Have you compared the two side by side?
Also, what focal lengths are you using and what is your definition of 'tack sharp'?
I've shot 5,000 to 10,000 on each (hard to tell because they keep resetting to 0, or rather, 10000001 or whatever it is).
Cheers,
R.
Bill Pierce
Well-known
Leitz published some charts showing the difference in vibration levels with the two shutters at 1/30 of a second. The initial vibration (end of the first curtain travel) was approximately 3 times as great in the shutter of the M8. Looking at magnified views of my own images I see a blur that is shake, mine or the shutters. But there is no question that it is greater and more consistent (always vertical) than that on my film Leicas; so, I am going to presume it is from the M8 shutter.
When the autofocus of a top of the line Canon was found wanting, the company took back cameras from photographers and, in many cases, replaced parts. What that must have cost in pride and profit was large, but they did it. Leitz is a much smaller company. Such a step would have been very difficult. But I am still offended that correcting a mistake should be user expensive and called an "upgrade."
By the way, this problem was discovered using my third M8. The first two failed within days. The good news is that Leitz, without hesitating, simply replaced those first two cameras. On that count, hooray for them. That is outstanding service.
When the autofocus of a top of the line Canon was found wanting, the company took back cameras from photographers and, in many cases, replaced parts. What that must have cost in pride and profit was large, but they did it. Leitz is a much smaller company. Such a step would have been very difficult. But I am still offended that correcting a mistake should be user expensive and called an "upgrade."
By the way, this problem was discovered using my third M8. The first two failed within days. The good news is that Leitz, without hesitating, simply replaced those first two cameras. On that count, hooray for them. That is outstanding service.
cfritze
Established
Bill:
Helpful information and much to think about in your response as I consider 8 or 8u vs 8.2. And I'd forgotten about those charts... Thank you.
Helpful information and much to think about in your response as I consider 8 or 8u vs 8.2. And I'd forgotten about those charts... Thank you.
benmacphoto
Well-known
I have not compared to two side by side, but the standard noise of the shutter has never interrupted me shooting and I have never had anyone question if I took their photo when out "street shooting".
Focal lengths I have used at those shutter speeds are 28-50. If I use a longer lens like a 90 I can do 1/30. My definition of tack sharp is it should hold up to make at least a 24x30" print without any loss of detail.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
And what is your definition of 'loss of detail'?
Ever tried shooting test targets at these speeds? Because I can guarantee there's a loss of detail, whether with the finest 35mm (25x) or 18x27mm (30+ times).
I'm not saying that this loss of detail is necessarily important. There are many great pics that are less than 'tack sharp'. I'm just querying 'tack sharp' against a tripod-mounted camera, especially if you also used a larger format.
Of course with a 30x enlargement, 'loss of detail' is somewhat nugatory anyway. Let's say you want even 5 lp/mm on the print. A 30x enlargement requires 150 lp/mm on the original.
Ho, ho, ho.
Cheers,
R.
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jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
That kind of sharpness would require a very sturdy tripod at any speed slower than 1/1000th with any camera. It is, however totally secondary to the content of the image.
johannielscom
Snorting silver salts
Like said, when shooting an 8th or 15th you can get sharp shots from the M8. But, sometimes you can't. Shutter shake, shooter shake, subject shake or simply something else keeps you from it. So what.
The OP wonders if it impairs shooting. I say no, it's just that some shots do not work out. Same with a DSLR, a 6x6 TLR, LF. Some shots you're gonna miss, while the parameters that make it fail vary.
I often feel this forum should have an anthem. It should be Queen's 'I want it all'. But, I hate Queen...
The OP wonders if it impairs shooting. I say no, it's just that some shots do not work out. Same with a DSLR, a 6x6 TLR, LF. Some shots you're gonna miss, while the parameters that make it fail vary.
I often feel this forum should have an anthem. It should be Queen's 'I want it all'. But, I hate Queen...
cfritze
Established
Thanks for the perspective. But it's not that I want it all, rather, what trade-offs are involved in moving from R-D1 to M8? Among the considerations (not the only ones) for the additional $$, how do the factors of high ISO performance, shutter vibration etc add up? Will the M8 be a step forward, or do I stay with my R-D1, my learnings and picture-taking aren't being severely limited by it, and wait for a time when my step into another digital rangefinder is more doable?
As to Queen, I'll close with "I want to ride my bicycle"
Happy weekend.
Durability of the shutter seems the best argument for the 8.2 over the 8. Vibration and noise also weight in. This is useful information from photographers that use both cameras.
I'm hoping Leica offers a good trade-in for the M9 and refurbs/upgrades the M8's.
I'm hoping Leica offers a good trade-in for the M9 and refurbs/upgrades the M8's.