Roger Hicks
Veteran
No, I'm being realistic.
(1) The probability of failure is modest, despite internet hysteria
(2) Even in the unlikely event that I get only a few years' use out of a digi-M, I don't regard even $1000/year (almost certainly a worst-case scenario) as an insupportable price for a camera I enjoy using and that gives me good pictures. Many spend far more than that on pointless swaps between systems, meaningless 'upgrades' and (meaningless) status symbols.
(3) I've never bought a Porsche (or a Bentley or Rolls Royce) because even if I can get a bargain vehicle, I can't afford the upkeep. If you can't afford the risk of losing a Leica, or breaking it, don't buy one.
Cheers,
R.
nobbylon
Veteran
I've got a complete aversion to gambling but that's a bet I'm tempted to takeGoogle "Porsche IMS bearing failure". Hasn't seemed to put much of a dent in their sales. As with Leica, there are people who remain vociferously loyal to Porsche no matter what obnoxious, arrogant crap the company pulls on them. (BTW I own one Porsche and numerous Leicas including an M9 and before that an M8, so don't even bother trying to dismiss me as a basher with no dog in the fight).
IMS on the later cars is a disgrace I agree. I wouldn't dream of dismissing you as a basher. I've owned and worked on Porsches for years but atleast when parts are needed they're available.
nobbylon
Veteran
1/ agreed but the problem does exist in certain cameras and those owners have been sadly let down
2/ again I agree. Use the camera you enjoy or does what you require. I just expect a little more for my money.
3/ again I agree with your view here
hteasley
Pupil
No argument there. I had a Mac at one time, I forget which model (a Powerbook, I think) that, through accident of design, two memory pins were switched, so typical memory modules would not work. To upgrade the RAM, you had to order special modules that had to be made for just that particular model. Color me surprised if folks are still making those RAM sticks.
And not to go too far down the other side of this, but part of what floats Leica is their reputation. Part of that reputation is, "Our cameras work forever. They're tanks." That got dented with some of the issues with the M8 and M9, but it's a reputation they have, and it's one they damage by ordinary business calculus.
Their reputation (and their amazing glass) is what will help keep them afloat when the current Leica craze dies down.
Ben Z
Veteran
Not half as absurd as your straw-man argument though. Show me where anyone is concerned about the M8 or M9 being serviceable in 50 years. The issue is the M8 has only been out of production three years and already unserviceable. Same thing happened with the DMR. That's decent precedent for M9 owners to be concerned IMO. Comparisons to iPhones, laptops and most other digital cameras don't hold either. How many of those cost $5000-$8000?
IEDEI
Well-known
wrong.
the camera is not "unserviceable".....the LCD screen is not in supply. nothing more...nothing less. The M8, otherwise, has been characterized as fully serviceable. The forums have exaggerated this issue to no end already----instilling a sense of fear and paranoia. The reality is....i have LCD screens from electronics dating to the early 90s which are still fully functional.
If the screen breaks, then we should deal with the problem then.....until then, there's no point in speculating and trying to freak out over the distant future when there is much pleasure to be had NOW in using what one has...
IEDEI
Well-known
you are right about technology advancing; however you should consider that there is already a 'retro' scene for old technology. This is characterized by a desire for simplicity.
an M8 or an M9 will be considered to be VERY simple in 20 years time, as compared to the far more technical and complicated devices which will exist then.
The proof being that even the upcoming M10 promises to be much more tech-savvy as compared to the current digital Ms.
Some people will lust after that simplicity. Look at the Epson RD-1....it STILL sells for around $1500. It is hopelessly outdated....however still enjoys a strong following. Same goes for cameras like the Digilux 2...etc.
msbel
Member
Back to the OP...
Drive the car off the lot, value goes down 30% or more. Improved model comes out driven by buzz and marketing to match, manufacturers via dealers are told to blow them out. Make space on the lots. Space is money. Used market feels downward pressure, some hold their own, other take major losses. We all know this.
I am thrilled. Been pining for an M9 for years, but new off the lot- too much for my wallet. I honestly just cannot afford it at the original price at this stage of my life (kids, college, unemployed wife - all good though - we eat well and have a roof and some fun now and again
Now one may be in reach with the M10's downward pressure on the market. If I can aid one of you getting closer to the M10 by making up half the difference in one shot, seems like a win-win. You are going to do it anyway.
My M8 has been in faithful servitude for years. Now going to sell it if I can get an M9 - will make up some ground for me..I am happy about that. And the person that gets it will be happy as well...entry into digital M for $1500 or less...wow.
Here is the the thing. In convincing myself I cannot afford an M9, I went around the horn trying to fill the void b/c I had convinced myself that the M8 was antiquated and a pain. I wanted AF (bought a D300/Nikon lenses), then more compact (starting with a D-Lux and then X1 - which I still use), then more bells and hype and the rest (NEX-7 Zeiss lens - great combo - just feel no connection to it - even with Leica glass), then most recently the "DSLR in a pocket" so everyone said (RX-100).....used it twice.
Then I picked up my M8 the other day with a trusted lens for some b&w shooting with a yellow filter. It was like a glove. I felt like taking pictures again. A 6 or so year old camera still has my heart even with all that other stuff in-between. The only other thing I would not give up other my Leica RF film/digital gear is my Rollei 6008 and Schneider lenses. The rest can go.
So...the prospect using a FF Digital M is very exciting for me, and now, because the market does what it is supposed to do, I may be able to do it. I may today.
As for Leica screwing everyone. I just downloaded the 2.014 firmware for the M8. I thought it had stopped years ago at 2.004. Why would they do that? Does Ford send something to all the Mustang owners from 5 years ago saying, hey, free engine enhancements to performance, diagnostics, and maybe a couple features you asked for.. )
As for the LCD, I don't care about it....if I can make out a composition on it, that is all I need. My last car analogy, bring a 6 year car to a dealership and ask them to service it for free....or order you the exact same part that went out of production.
Let me know where they said yes, 'cause I need a tune up!
Drive the car off the lot, value goes down 30% or more. Improved model comes out driven by buzz and marketing to match, manufacturers via dealers are told to blow them out. Make space on the lots. Space is money. Used market feels downward pressure, some hold their own, other take major losses. We all know this.
I am thrilled. Been pining for an M9 for years, but new off the lot- too much for my wallet. I honestly just cannot afford it at the original price at this stage of my life (kids, college, unemployed wife - all good though - we eat well and have a roof and some fun now and again
Now one may be in reach with the M10's downward pressure on the market. If I can aid one of you getting closer to the M10 by making up half the difference in one shot, seems like a win-win. You are going to do it anyway.
My M8 has been in faithful servitude for years. Now going to sell it if I can get an M9 - will make up some ground for me..I am happy about that. And the person that gets it will be happy as well...entry into digital M for $1500 or less...wow.
Here is the the thing. In convincing myself I cannot afford an M9, I went around the horn trying to fill the void b/c I had convinced myself that the M8 was antiquated and a pain. I wanted AF (bought a D300/Nikon lenses), then more compact (starting with a D-Lux and then X1 - which I still use), then more bells and hype and the rest (NEX-7 Zeiss lens - great combo - just feel no connection to it - even with Leica glass), then most recently the "DSLR in a pocket" so everyone said (RX-100).....used it twice.
Then I picked up my M8 the other day with a trusted lens for some b&w shooting with a yellow filter. It was like a glove. I felt like taking pictures again. A 6 or so year old camera still has my heart even with all that other stuff in-between. The only other thing I would not give up other my Leica RF film/digital gear is my Rollei 6008 and Schneider lenses. The rest can go.
So...the prospect using a FF Digital M is very exciting for me, and now, because the market does what it is supposed to do, I may be able to do it. I may today.
As for Leica screwing everyone. I just downloaded the 2.014 firmware for the M8. I thought it had stopped years ago at 2.004. Why would they do that? Does Ford send something to all the Mustang owners from 5 years ago saying, hey, free engine enhancements to performance, diagnostics, and maybe a couple features you asked for.. )
As for the LCD, I don't care about it....if I can make out a composition on it, that is all I need. My last car analogy, bring a 6 year car to a dealership and ask them to service it for free....or order you the exact same part that went out of production.
Let me know where they said yes, 'cause I need a tune up!
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Wow ... Leica not being able to replace an LCD on a six year old digital camera has ceratainly put some noses out of joint!
What about that damned camera they just released that refuses to do colour ... no one's bitching about that and it costs a motza!
What about that damned camera they just released that refuses to do colour ... no one's bitching about that and it costs a motza!
Ben Z
Veteran
I never use the LCD for anything but setting the menus. Try putting a piece of gaffer tape over yours and change the ISO a few times, or format an SD. Seems like doing it blind would be a collossal pain.
I just had my 10 yr old Mercedes at the dealer for a bad switch. They had it in stock. The parts guy told me he can get me any part including electronics and computer modules, for any model and year going back to the brand's inception. Unlike Leica, Mercedes actually makes good on their marketing hype. As for expecting them to fix it for free, nobody said anything about expecting Leica should repair their M8 for free. Another straw-man argument.
IEDEI
Well-known
same with my 11 year-old Audi-------but the difference between the automotive market is that EVEN IF Audi ran out of parts for my TT, there is a florid aftermarket parts scene that will manufacture alternative solutions....or even refurbished, salvaged, or adapted parts from other cars of similar requirements.
my theory all along is that another company should source a solution....or Leica should allow 3rd parties to develop innovative solutions for the problems they themselves cannot solve.
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
There are many Leica forums around, but this forum gives me the impression that many members actually do not have the means to own a Leica and are shooting above their means. Some members sound really pathetic, I'm thinking to organize a charity or fund raising just so that they can keep on using their obsolete cameras. Really pathetic. Maybe someone should call it the underprivileged forum instead.
EdwardKaraa
Well-known
And most didn't even buy their cameras from Leica. They are 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th hand cameras, Leica must be nuts to even consider repairing this old junk.
leicashot
Well-known
So who's saying Leica reduced the cost by $1500? Leica offered a gift card for $1000 but it seems this is one particular seller that is clearing stock through Amazon and taking a profit cut of $500 in the process....why is there such fuss over this?
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
The fuss is there because there is now a wave of Internet-driven "reverse hype" going on that started from an unavailability notice on a particular spare part and has now snowballed into people looking for doomsday signs everywhere.
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
Agreed 100%. This sums up the whole discussion in a nutshell.
"Never buy anything that you can't afford losing" seems to be one of those simple wisdoms that people always forget. And then they get emotionally worked up about it when it's pointed out to them, either by fate or by other people.
sig
Well-known
It is good that the prices are down. More people can afford the M9s.
Why prices are down is interesting.
New M10?
Overproduction?
Customers not interested due to quality / old tech etc?
M8 situ has scared off potential customers?
Brand has got a dent?
Why prices are down is interesting.
New M10?
Overproduction?
Customers not interested due to quality / old tech etc?
M8 situ has scared off potential customers?
Brand has got a dent?
larmarv916
Well-known
Ok..The discount of the M9 is because the M10 is a reality. There are all kinds of images of the M10 and the best article is found at
http://leicarumors.com/2012/08/21/leica-m10-speculations.aspx/
A sony produced CMOS sensor 24Meg Pixel and a electronic viewfinder from Olympus that is sold now as accessory now in the Leica X2...so this is a "parts camera" made from the parts bin of several different suppliers....so if it was a car, it could have a Ford engine, suspension from a jeep, body work from god knows who.
The Sony sensor will give the camera Video ability...just like a 600 dollar Canon Rebel.
WOW...how impressive....leading from the rear again. And I am sure the M10 stands for the new price ! This is so sad...but lucky for me my M3 still works perfectly after all these years.
http://leicarumors.com/2012/08/21/leica-m10-speculations.aspx/
A sony produced CMOS sensor 24Meg Pixel and a electronic viewfinder from Olympus that is sold now as accessory now in the Leica X2...so this is a "parts camera" made from the parts bin of several different suppliers....so if it was a car, it could have a Ford engine, suspension from a jeep, body work from god knows who.
The Sony sensor will give the camera Video ability...just like a 600 dollar Canon Rebel.
WOW...how impressive....leading from the rear again. And I am sure the M10 stands for the new price ! This is so sad...but lucky for me my M3 still works perfectly after all these years.
Lss
Well-known
I am not above charity. You want my IBAN?
nobbylon
Veteran
The particular spare part you speak of ie the screen, is intrinsic to the 100% functionality of the camera. The reverse hype can be justified I believe because of the over hype of the camera to be something it has clearly not turned out to be.
As for looking for doomsday signs, not at all, mearly questioning whether the M9 and subsequent Leica digital M's will suffer the same fate with regard to parts availability and repairability given the track record regarding digital product support. I don't see why that's a question that shouldn't be asked given that it's not debate regarding this issue, it's fact and a fact admitted by Leica themselves.