Leica M9 sensor

[tardegard]

Hi all, and good Easter.
Could you guys help me understand this Leica M9 (and co.) corrosion issue?
I would need to know if it is something that, when happens, is definitely going to get worse and worse through years. Or maybe it is just stable?
There is a M9 copy affected by this problem which actually is not too bad: only few marks at very stopped down aperture.
If I know that it would stay so I could live with it.
What do you think?
Thanks.

 

[Chuffed Cheese]

It’s interesting because I’ve seen claims that if it hasn’t shown up yet the camera should be safe and then claims that eventually every sensor will develop it so be careful. Not sure who to believe honestly. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[tardegard]

It’s interesting because I’ve seen claims that if it hasn’t shown up yet the camera should be safe and then claims that eventually every sensor will develop it so be careful. Not sure who to believe honestly. The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Yeah but this camera has it, for sure, but pretty controlled yet.
I would need to understand if it is going to get worse, before I buy it..... 🙂

 

[Rob-F]

It will get worse. I would not buy it unless you are resolved to pay for a sensor replacement. If you can get the M9 at a price that makes that worth while, and are willing to wait for the work to be done--it could take months--then it is a good Leica once the sensor is replaced. Otherwise I would consider a different model.

 

[Benjamin Marks]

I would call Leica, find out from the techs there a) what their assessment is, and b) what a sensor replacement would cost. I first would find out from the seller the serial camera's number and whether the sensor had already been replaced so that I had this information in hand when talking to Leica. Bottom line: I would not buy a camera with a corrosion problem without a discount that takes into account these costs.

 

[tardegard]

It will get worse. I would not buy it unless you are resolved to pay for a sensor replacement. If you can get the M9 at a price that makes that worth while, and are willing to wait for the work to be done--it could take months--then it is a good Leica once the sensor is replaced. Otherwise I would consider a different model.

Does it take months to change the sensor??

 

[Chuffed Cheese]

If it’s guaranteed to have it then anything more than $800-$1100 is too much.

 

[icebear]

This thread should be moved to :
https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=68

There are plenty of discussion already about the very topic...

 

[willie_901]

Hi all, and good Easter.
Could you guys help me understand this Leica M9 (and co.) corrosion issue?
I would need to know if it is something that, when happens, is definitely going to get worse and worse through years. Or maybe it is just stable?
There is a M9 copy affected by this problem which actually is not too bad: only few marks at very stopped down aperture.
If I know that it would stay so I could live with it.
What do you think?
Thanks.

The M9 sensor issue is caused by the reaction of water vapor with the IR filter film layered in the sensor-assembly cover glass. At the time, this IR filter film material was both efficient and very thin. Using this film eliminated the M8's IR contamination problem and minimized re-engineering the sensor assembly to accommodate for a thicker cover-glass layer with thicker, water-inert IR filter film materials.

Any breach or disruption in the cover-glass surface that allows water vapor to reach the IR filter film degrades the IR filter film. This includes improper sensor cleaning, optically irrelevant (extremely thin) cracks due to expansion and contract and possibly sealing issues at the edge of the cover-glass assembly.

When the problem starts, it will become worse because water vapor is ubiquitous. Even in dry climates, people produce water vapor in enclosed spaces.

What is unpredictable seems to be the rate of corrosion growth. The anecdotal evidence is contradictory. Some people in humid climates claim to have trivial or even no problems. Some people in dry climates report relatively rapid corrosion rates. Some people report storing their camera in a dry-box works well while others report the opposite experience.

Ask yourself this. Why would Leica bear the cost of a free replacement program for all cameras regardless of ownership history if the corrosion issue was a rare and, or preventable?

 

[raid]

If you can deduct $1000 from the selling price, then maybe you get a reasonable offer for this M9.

 

[tardegard]

If it’s guaranteed to have it then anything more than $800-$1100 is too much.

I agree.....
but he asks more

 

[tardegard]

The M9 sensor issue is caused by the reaction of water vapor with the IR filter film layered in the sensor-assembly cover glass. At the time, this IR filter film material was both efficient and very thin. Using this film eliminated the M8's IR contamination problem and minimized re-engineering the sensor assembly to accommodate for a thicker cover-glass layer with thicker, water-inert IR filter film materials.

Any breach or disruption in the cover-glass surface that allows water vapor to reach the IR filter film degrades the IR filter film. This includes improper sensor cleaning, optically irrelevant (extremely thin) cracks due to expansion and contract and possibly sealing issues at the edge of the cover-glass assembly.

When the problem starts, it will become worse because water vapor is ubiquitous. Even in dry climates, people produce water vapor in enclosed spaces.

What is unpredictable seems to be the rate of corrosion growth. The anecdotal evidence is contradictory. Some people in humid climates claim to have trivial or even no problems. Some people in dry climates report relatively rapid corrosion rates. Some people report storing their camera in a dry-box works well while others report the opposite experience.

Ask yourself this. Why would Leica bear the cost of a free replacement program for all cameras regardless of ownership history if the corrosion issue was a rare and, or preventable?

Thank you lots for deep explanation

 

[ptpdprinter]

Ask yourself this. Why would Leica bear the cost of a free replacement program for all cameras regardless of ownership history if the corrosion issue was a rare and, or preventable?

Because the problem is widespread and results from a design defect, and they were threatened with a class-action law suit?

 

[tardegard]

Because the problem is widespread and results from a design defect, and they were threatened with a class-action law suit?

🙂🙂🙂 great point

 

[Huss]

It will get worse. And the repair is $1100 with a 7 month wait. And who knows if Leica will even honour the repair with new cameras in the repair queue? They may decide to pull the plug and say your only option is to pay to upgrade to an M240 series.
They have already broken previous commitments to owners.

I would only buy an M9 now if it comes with documented proof that it has the latest sensor in it. A replacement sensor is not good enough, Leica were replacing defective sensors with the same defective design ones for a while.

 

[tardegard]

It will get worse. And the repair is $1100 with a 7 month wait. And who knows if Leica will even honour the repair with new cameras in the repair queue? They may decide to pull the plug and say your only option is to pay to upgrade to an M240 series.
They have already broken previous commitments to owners.

I would only buy an M9 now if it comes with documented proof that it has the latest sensor in it. A replacement sensor is not good enough, Leica were replacing defective sensors with the same defective design ones for a while.

how can you tell the replaced sensor is the new one?
thanks!

 

[Beemermark]

Because the problem is widespread and results from a design defect, and they were threatened with a class-action law suit?

Well they didn't seem to threatened by a lawsuit. They stopped the free sensor replacement program last Aug., probably when they figured out all M9 sensors would go bad.

 

[ptpdprinter]

Well they didn't seem to threatened by a lawsuit. They stopped the free sensor replacement program last Aug., probably when they figured out all M9 sensors would go bad.

It was what prompted the sensor replacement program to begin with. Originally it was lifetime. I suspect they cut it back to 8/1/2017 when the sensor manufacturer advised them they were going to stop making the sensors, which is understandable since they discontinued the camera in 2012 and shifted from CCD to CMOS.

 

[tardegard]

Woah.
I started this thread looking for info about buying a Leica M9.
I end it realizing that the best thing to do is not to buy a Leica M9. 🙁

 

[ptpdprinter]

Woah.
I started this thread looking for info about buying a Leica M9.
I end it realizing that the best thing to do is not to buy a Leica M9. 🙁

Glad we could be of help. The subsequent models have been relatively problem free, and used ones come up regularly.