Jamie123
Veteran
Frankly, while it was to be expected, I'm still surprised by the kind of reaction the OP is getting here.
For one there's the people who are questioning the OP's professionality. Amateurs for the most part who have loads of theories of what they would do ''if they were paid'' to get pictures. The OP didn't do anything wrong or unprofessional. He had backup equipment at the shoot and was prepared for most kinds of camera failure. What he wasn't prepared for was for the camera to mess up all the images he had already taken.
But not only that, the OP also is getting criticised for warning other people about this issue and calling out Leica for not alerting its customers. What's wrong with that? Maybe it will force Leica to solve the problem quicker or at least alert customers. Leica is a company like any other and if they want to keep selling luxury goods a luxury prices they better stay on top of the game.
For one there's the people who are questioning the OP's professionality. Amateurs for the most part who have loads of theories of what they would do ''if they were paid'' to get pictures. The OP didn't do anything wrong or unprofessional. He had backup equipment at the shoot and was prepared for most kinds of camera failure. What he wasn't prepared for was for the camera to mess up all the images he had already taken.
But not only that, the OP also is getting criticised for warning other people about this issue and calling out Leica for not alerting its customers. What's wrong with that? Maybe it will force Leica to solve the problem quicker or at least alert customers. Leica is a company like any other and if they want to keep selling luxury goods a luxury prices they better stay on top of the game.
shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Gil,
Press on, and publish on.
You are a customer of Leica, paying a hefty amount for the quality and yes, *expectation* of quality.
Those people who said you're trolling are now biting their nails because the problem can strike their M9 at anytime. It's electronic meets poor software coding (and maybe design).
Only in Leica-land...
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I believe that the OP stated that SanDisk itself had said that the first card had an issue, so they gave him another one. And it failed again. Then he finds out that there are other people with the same combination of card + camera that have this problem.
I'm not saying it's not a problem with the camera...I'm saying that after all that he said, his calling for avoiding the camera 100% makes no sense. Unless you add emotion and bias, or very strong paranoia, then yes, it makes sense.
It's the extremists that make this Intertoobes thing blow out of proportion. Buzzwords w/underlying puns mildly intended.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Emm...
Maybe I misunderinterpreted, or people just don't read and start firing away.
user237428934
User deletion pending
The only warning I read between the lines so far is: don't buy this camera or if you already have one, sell it as fast as possible.
At least I'm interpreting it that way and that's probably causing some reaction here.
If the warning was: shoot differently, don't fill the buffer too fast, use XY cards, .... because otherwise this and that might happen, then it would make more sense to me.
At least I'm interpreting it that way and that's probably causing some reaction here.
If the warning was: shoot differently, don't fill the buffer too fast, use XY cards, .... because otherwise this and that might happen, then it would make more sense to me.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
Wait until you get a power-reader (if that) to blast you on your outrageous, McEnroish caviar logic.
zleica
Established
I hope Leica realize the seriousness of this problem and provide an updated firmware to correct it SOON!
gillavi
Member
Gabriel, The problem happened with OTHER cards as well, all were given to me by Leica dealer after talking to Leica!!!!!. Don't twist the text.
I have never filled the buffer and I couldn't find one card to make any of the 2 M9's to work reliably under any circumstances.
Some words about me and my experience with digital equipment:
I started shooting digitally in 2002 with the Canon 1d.
I was, among other roles, the head of still photography dep. of the Israeli ground forces. In this job I had many photographers under me, all shooting Nikon equipment. I was also a technical advisor to Canon's importer to Israel and to israle's largest daily news paper photography dept.
I've been using personally and people under me were using in recent years hundreds of camera and thousands of memory cards from different manufactures.
Today I have my own studio with client list that includes Delta Airlines, Sunday times, Knorr, orange, Siemens, Politicians, governments, leading Ad firms such as Y&R, IPG, Publics and others. My works sells in different galleries and by different auction houses including Christie's.
In all of my career till now I only saw one memory card goes bad. It was a Lexar 512CF died inside a Nikon D2H back in 2006 or something like that. It was one card out of hundreds that I purchased for my unit back than.
I been shooting Leica for a long time, both film and digital. I never had any problem before the M9.
I tried to make 2 different M9's work reliably with more than 5 different cards approved by Leica rep and all failed. I found at list 30 users who experienced the same. The problem is known for a very long time.
That's all I have to say and I think it's truly a shame for Leica.
I have never filled the buffer and I couldn't find one card to make any of the 2 M9's to work reliably under any circumstances.
Some words about me and my experience with digital equipment:
I started shooting digitally in 2002 with the Canon 1d.
I was, among other roles, the head of still photography dep. of the Israeli ground forces. In this job I had many photographers under me, all shooting Nikon equipment. I was also a technical advisor to Canon's importer to Israel and to israle's largest daily news paper photography dept.
I've been using personally and people under me were using in recent years hundreds of camera and thousands of memory cards from different manufactures.
Today I have my own studio with client list that includes Delta Airlines, Sunday times, Knorr, orange, Siemens, Politicians, governments, leading Ad firms such as Y&R, IPG, Publics and others. My works sells in different galleries and by different auction houses including Christie's.
In all of my career till now I only saw one memory card goes bad. It was a Lexar 512CF died inside a Nikon D2H back in 2006 or something like that. It was one card out of hundreds that I purchased for my unit back than.
I been shooting Leica for a long time, both film and digital. I never had any problem before the M9.
I tried to make 2 different M9's work reliably with more than 5 different cards approved by Leica rep and all failed. I found at list 30 users who experienced the same. The problem is known for a very long time.
That's all I have to say and I think it's truly a shame for Leica.
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eleskin
Well-known
Sorry about your experience but:
Sorry about your experience but:
Sorry to hear about your experience. The M9 is still experimental I fear, and people who own it are in the same position early M8 buyers were. I use a later production M8 and have had zero problems regarding SD cards.
Leica should seriously consider outsourcing major electronic components to reputable Japanese manufacturers. They can then concentrate on making M9/10 body shells, rangefinders, and the best glass money can buy.
Sorry about your experience but:
Sorry to hear about your experience. The M9 is still experimental I fear, and people who own it are in the same position early M8 buyers were. I use a later production M8 and have had zero problems regarding SD cards.
Leica should seriously consider outsourcing major electronic components to reputable Japanese manufacturers. They can then concentrate on making M9/10 body shells, rangefinders, and the best glass money can buy.
Gabriel M.A.
My Red Dot Glows For You
I'm not "twisting the text". I'm just commenting and quoting on what I'm reading; not making any leaps. You, sir, are:
I'm not the only one reading between your lines: you blame Leica. (yes, yes, Shame on/for Leica!™) Other users may have this problem, but then there's a huge percentage that don't have this problem. You have had the misfortune of experiencing no matter how many times you've changed bodies/cards.
I know of someone who would buy Zeiss lenses, and all of them would be misaligned (back-focused or front-focused). Even some CV lenses. Swore it was the lenses, not the body. I don't know what it is that he did with them, but it's obvious that somebody with that kind of luck there would be doing something other than what was claimed to be the manufacturers' fault.
But again, you're entitled to your opinion. Pointing out the contradictions in observations and arguments isn't "twisting the text". Perhaps the logic is twisted beforehand? I don't know. I do not have your experience, nor do I claim that what you are experiencing is not true. And I'm sure that you are extremely frustrated (I'd be fuming, to say the least).
But making a highly big fuss about it (and what's more, to "read about it over at my blog") is really not very high-roadish. But that's just me.
Indeed, Shame On Leica™.
gillavi
Member
Gabriel, just remember, it can hurt your camera in any moment, tough I'm sure you are so drunk from the red point that we will never hear about it .
Leica is an amazing company with some of the greatest products man ever created. The mechanics are masterpiece, the glass is by far superior to any other and the handling is brilliant. I never loved a camera as I loved the Leica system. The brand story as well is amazing and the design is super sexy. The image quality is indeed without compromise.
But what all of the above means if it fails to save the pictures?!!?!?!?!?!?!??!
For people who just want to shops off their red dot I guess it doesn't really matter if the camera works, but for my, who always covered the red dot so people like you will stop bugging me on the street, it matters allot.
G
.Leica is an amazing company with some of the greatest products man ever created. The mechanics are masterpiece, the glass is by far superior to any other and the handling is brilliant. I never loved a camera as I loved the Leica system. The brand story as well is amazing and the design is super sexy. The image quality is indeed without compromise.
But what all of the above means if it fails to save the pictures?!!?!?!?!?!?!??!
For people who just want to shops off their red dot I guess it doesn't really matter if the camera works, but for my, who always covered the red dot so people like you will stop bugging me on the street, it matters allot.
G
gillavi
Member
A response I just got from Leica:
"Dear Mr. Lavi,
As you might have noticed, we have recognized your concerns that you have been posting.
[cid:C82D1B3C-6740-4A01-BFA0-B0C796F63CB4]
While I totally understand your frustration and pain to lose valuable and non replaceable pictures, I hope that with our action we can regain your trust.
Initial problems were due to the use of low end cards which in your case is not the case! Low end cards often do not conform with the standards of hight end SD cards, which can lead to problems.
Therefore the problem that you are describing was initially an isolated issue that was resolved by formatting any new card to the FAT standard after San Disk issued cards with a new card format.
In the meantime we have learned of your problem and others with the same issue, which made us look into into it.
I am sorry that our efforts come to late for you. I regret that this problem has lead to all the inconveniences and anger on your end.
Personally I would like to ensure you that we will work on finding a solution and invite you to test drive the Leica S2, which has not shown the problem due to a different architecture. You may contact me directly to arrange a free test drive in the US.
In the meantime I wish we could have shared our point of view with your readers of your comments on your Facebook site and other places as it is our believe as Leica Camera to take everyone's concerns serious.
Please feel free to contact me in the meantime while Leica's team in Germany is working on a solution."
"Dear Mr. Lavi,
As you might have noticed, we have recognized your concerns that you have been posting.
[cid:C82D1B3C-6740-4A01-BFA0-B0C796F63CB4]
While I totally understand your frustration and pain to lose valuable and non replaceable pictures, I hope that with our action we can regain your trust.
Initial problems were due to the use of low end cards which in your case is not the case! Low end cards often do not conform with the standards of hight end SD cards, which can lead to problems.
Therefore the problem that you are describing was initially an isolated issue that was resolved by formatting any new card to the FAT standard after San Disk issued cards with a new card format.
In the meantime we have learned of your problem and others with the same issue, which made us look into into it.
I am sorry that our efforts come to late for you. I regret that this problem has lead to all the inconveniences and anger on your end.
Personally I would like to ensure you that we will work on finding a solution and invite you to test drive the Leica S2, which has not shown the problem due to a different architecture. You may contact me directly to arrange a free test drive in the US.
In the meantime I wish we could have shared our point of view with your readers of your comments on your Facebook site and other places as it is our believe as Leica Camera to take everyone's concerns serious.
Please feel free to contact me in the meantime while Leica's team in Germany is working on a solution."
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Jamie123
Veteran
"Emm..." what? Is SanDisk not the leading brand of flash memory cards? Your ridiculous analogy made the OP out as someone who cheaped out on the memory card and then complained when they failed.
gillavi
Member
Look above: Leica already admits the problem and after my warning it became: "highest priority".
Why wasn't it highest priority before, or any priority?!
Why wasn't it highest priority before, or any priority?!
rxmd
May contain traces of nut
I guess it was the same priority as a number of other issues currently under investigation, and after you made a fuss about your issue it got bumped to the top of the stack because Leica considers you a high-profile customer. (Otherwise they wouldn't offer S2 test drives.)
Phantomas
Well-known
Yeah, for real, you're posting this on the wrong forum. People here would still lick Leica's a$$ if it exploaded and killed their whole family.
Therefore it's not Leica's fault, it's YOUR fault! Now go punish yourself by buying another M9!
Therefore it's not Leica's fault, it's YOUR fault! Now go punish yourself by buying another M9!
gillavi
Member
Exactly
I love that some ridiculous people ignores most parts of the story and the fact that Leica wrote back they acknowledging the problem and looking for a solution.
I love that some ridiculous people ignores most parts of the story and the fact that Leica wrote back they acknowledging the problem and looking for a solution.
Yeah, for real, you're posting this on the wrong forum. People here would still lick Leica's a$$ if it exploaded and killed their whole family.
Therefore it's not Leica's fault, it's YOUR fault! Now go punish yourself by buying another M9!
Jeff S
Well-known
huntjump
Well-known
Pretty fun thread to read. my feeling is, both sides of the argument are getting kind of extreme.
I think it is fair to say, for a $7,000 body, it should not fail and should be reliable. I think though the OP could have simply stated all his frustration, and let the readers decide if they want to take the plunge or avoid...instead of writing the post as if everyone needs to avoid the M9 like the plague. But, some posts seem like M9 users are extremely sensitive to any criticism.
I also think it is pretty cool of Leica to let you use the S2, and you could give SOME credit to Leica for trying. Maybe a bit late, but better late then never no?
Apple products fail on first versions all the time. Apple fans vigorously defend it at all costs, users with bad products trash it. Life goes on. We shouldn't condemn OP for notifying the community. Professional users depend on reliability for their livelihood, of course his frustration would be far greater than maybe even the average m9 user. I dont know the statistics on how many pro's shoot m9 versus the shooter who uses it for his/her own personal enjoyment. A failed experience (or experiences) will be far worse in the mind of professional whose reputation and income depends on reliability and not angering the clients.
Anyway, as an avid apple user, I still appreciate when people write about bad experiences (especially when its not an isolated incident) in products so I can then have more information to decide whether to wait or buy anyway. Same goes for cameras or any other product im buying.
I think it is fair to say, for a $7,000 body, it should not fail and should be reliable. I think though the OP could have simply stated all his frustration, and let the readers decide if they want to take the plunge or avoid...instead of writing the post as if everyone needs to avoid the M9 like the plague. But, some posts seem like M9 users are extremely sensitive to any criticism.
I also think it is pretty cool of Leica to let you use the S2, and you could give SOME credit to Leica for trying. Maybe a bit late, but better late then never no?
Apple products fail on first versions all the time. Apple fans vigorously defend it at all costs, users with bad products trash it. Life goes on. We shouldn't condemn OP for notifying the community. Professional users depend on reliability for their livelihood, of course his frustration would be far greater than maybe even the average m9 user. I dont know the statistics on how many pro's shoot m9 versus the shooter who uses it for his/her own personal enjoyment. A failed experience (or experiences) will be far worse in the mind of professional whose reputation and income depends on reliability and not angering the clients.
Anyway, as an avid apple user, I still appreciate when people write about bad experiences (especially when its not an isolated incident) in products so I can then have more information to decide whether to wait or buy anyway. Same goes for cameras or any other product im buying.
peter_n
Veteran
+1. There's two of them in it here; the OP and Leica. The first question I asked in post #17 was about the card and its compatibility. The OP didn't respond and now it turns out that the card is not on the list. Due diligence not done. The OP knew that the camera was dodgy before the shoot but persisted with it. To use his own phrase he was in love and he disastrously allowed that to strongly influence him. I've no problem with the OP notifying the user community but for him to reject any notion of culpability for his particular situation is unacceptable. As huntjump says directly above professional users depend on reliability for their livelihood and reliability should be the very first criterion when it comes to work. The OP used a camera he knew was unreliable and he can't blame anyone else for that.
I won't go near the Leica digitals; just way too many problems. The camera costs $7K and for that kind of money I have an expectation that it will work. I have the money for the purchase, I would love to buy one so I could use my Leica glass but I can't bring myself to do it. Maybe in 2 or 3 years when they sort out the M9. It's unacceptable that Leica releases a cosmetic upgrade when the camera still doesn't work properly; it shows you where their heads are though doesn't it?
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