Leica News from Chasseur d'images

I think 8000 Euros is a pretty good price for what is undoubtedly a very complex lens with unusually demanding tolerances. Optics of this caliper are rarely mass produced in any volume. I would not be surprised to find a number of them finding their way into laboratory applications.

I'll reserve full judgment till I see images produced with the thing wide-open, but it's likely to be rather impressive.

Despite the fact that most of us here can't afford this sort of glass, I think all the probable photographic-media-world hoopla and excitement caused by the appearance of these lenses is good for the traditional photographic community. Remember, there's no such thing as "bad publicity".
 
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you guys are missing the most important part of this leak: it looks like the m8.2 will be offered in black paint. 😀
 
A 24/1.4 would be hard to resist on the M8. In lieu of high iso performance we have a high speed lens so we can shoot 640iso well into the night. I just have to decide what to sell.
 
Ray Nalley said:
Well, how about a poll? This forum has more Leica fanatics per square inch than any place on earth. Show of hands, how many are planning on buying one of the new lenses when they hit the market? Let's show Leica what their real market is.
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If -- the new 21/1.4 performs like the 28/2 or the 75/2 and
If -- it doesn't block the rangefinder and viewfinder

Then I'll start saving and selling and whatever to get one. I've been waiting for years for someone to make a 21/2, but this is fantastic if useable. I heard about it a while ago, and am glad that it now seems to be real.

The last while, and you can start this at the development of the first f/1 50 or at the first 35 Aspherical, Leica has continually set new benchmarks in optical performance. This is what they're good at, and they've correctly identified their strength. Nobody else at Photokina has lenses like these. Others might well be capable of producing such lenses, but don't have a tradition of doing so and therefore, even when they do produce them can't sell them as well. Just look at the 15/2.8 and 85/2 Zeiss products. Current productions seems to be excellent, and in line with what Leica produces, but priced equally and not selling. I've seen neither; that doesn't mean there aren't any out there but the numbers must be tiny.

The only real possibility for alternatives is for Zeiss, but at present more likely Nikon to produce a first class DRF and a line of lenses. It might be somewhat cheaper than Leica's, but not necessarily a whole lot and it will definitely come out with a smaller and more conservative line of lenses.

So in the near future, if you want lenses like these with performance like Leica is capable of delivering, you got these or nothing. Forego that new BMW or even VW and get a 3 year old Toyota. That'll allow you to get whatever lenses you want. Fortunately the lowest prices on the planet are likely to be noticeably less than those posted.

Henning
 
Roger Hicks said:
Dear Fred,

You never know unless you try it. I was prepared to dismiss both the Thambar and the (f/1) Noctilux as 'interesting, but...'

Then I tried them. I bought the Thambar from the chum who lent it to me and I was seriously considering the Noctilux as well, but now the probable second-hand value of Noctilux has jumped another $1000 it's even more out of reach than before. I'm going to see him next week to give it back; I hope the tear-stains don't show.

But I may conceivably buy a 24/1.4. After all, the 35/1.4 has been my standard lens on film for almost 30 years, and this is the nearest equivalent we are ever likely to see on the M8. When the full-frame comes out in a few years (with any luck, a very few), it'll still be a very useful lens.

I've had my current 35/1.4 for about a quarter of a century, and counting. If I see the same out of a 24 Summilux at 4000 euros (I'm VAT-registered), I'll be 83 at the quarter-century and it will have cost me 160 euros/year or (at present exchange rates) $5/week. That neglects capital opportunity costs, obviously, but it also neglects earning capacity.

Finally, if I ever finish my novel and sell it for vast sums, I'd buy a Noctilux as well...

Cheers,

R.
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Nice way to put things into perspective, you should have been car seller Roger. 😉
My main pull back in investing so much money in photography is not really the absolute euros value, but the risk of theft. Imagine a M8.2 bag + 24 Summilux snatched from you and you only have your eyes left to cry.
How have you dealt with that over your long photographic life ?
 
Ray Nalley said:
Well, how about a poll? This forum has more Leica fanatics per square inch than any place on earth. Show of hands, how many are planning on buying one of the new lenses when they hit the market? Let's show Leica what their real market is.
Click to expand...

People seem to forget that the contributors to this forum represent a tiny fraction of those people who buy Leica. Whilst I am sure Leica take note of some of the things posted here, don't kid yourself that this forum is a true representation of what Leica buyers think.

It staggers me how people can start moaning about the cost of these new optics when they have no idea about the compexities of builidng such lenses.

Anyone care to try in their garden shed?

Many will be bought by very wealthy people who buy them simply because they are expensive. It is this market which allows Leica to produce such gems and for this market, ironically, the more expensive the better!


Such market trends are common in goods that most people see as luxury items.

For example:

How do Ferrari manage to sell most of their cars to people who will not (or cannot) be able to use them to their full potential?

How do Rolex mange to sell watches which are inaccurate when compared to some $20 digitals?

They rely on selling to people who buy status symbols, just as Leica does.

A better poll might be to ask who here has bought anything new from Leica.

The only new item I've ever bought is an M8 battery.


.....I'm really glad some people like status symbols.

SR
 
Must admit the introduction of these new lenses doesn't set my pulse racing but I'm not doing photography for a living. I guess if you think a 50 .95 can earn you bucks and pay for itself, go for it. I'd just like a 50 1.2 from Zeiss or CV for a grand. If Nikon can sell 50 1.2 AIS for less than $500 I live in hope. I just wonder how many pros really need these lenses. Why not just buy a D3 and pocket the change.
 
For what it's worth, the consensus on the L Camera forum, and the word coming out of Leica dealers here in the UK, suggests that the feature in Chasseur d'images actually carries the wrong prices – looks like they've printed the US Dollar prices as Euros. The word on the street (ooh, don't I sound like Huggy Bear!), in the UK at least, suggests prices more in the region of:

50mm Noctilux - £4450
24mm Summilux - £2780
21mm Summilux - £2780
24mm Elmar - £1000
 
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SR1 said:
Many will be bought by very wealthy people who buy them simply because they are expensive. It is this market which allows Leica to produce such gems and for this market, ironically, the more expensive the better!



SR
Click to expand...

Yes, while I personally think the prices are absurd (and a bit disappointing, I admit), it is Leica's choice to pursue any pricing strategy they feel appropriate.

Many people who could afford these will choose not to buy them because of their own views of comparative value. Even among the wealthy (I know many of them very well, if I use Obama's definition 🙂 ), there is a surprising percentage who are price sensitive. They aren't in Leica's target market...

From http://www.netmba.com/marketing/pricing/:

"Skim pricing attempts to "skim the cream" off the top of the market by setting a high price and selling to those customers who are less price sensitive. Skimming is a strategy used to pursue the objective of profit margin maximization.
Skimming is most appropriate when:
  • Demand is expected to be relatively inelastic; that is, the customers are not highly price sensitive.
  • Large cost savings are not expected at high volumes, or it is difficult to predict the cost savings that would be achieved at high volume.
  • The company does not have the resources to finance the large capital expenditures necessary for high volume production with initially low profit margins."
Usually, competition will step in and attempt to claim a share of such a high margin market and prices will drop. Leica doesn't need to worry a lot about this - the status value of their name and the very small size of the RF market will prove to be disincentives/barriers to others thinking of taking them head-on. Players like Cosina may try to nibble at the edges by introducing something "close", but it would have a negligible impact on Leica, IMO...
 
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veraikon said:
again cut off from the posted french prices about 20% V.A.T.
In Europe every consumer price has to be labeled inclusive V.A.T.
M Noctilux 50 f/0.95 : 8000 € =>~ 6400 excl. V.A.T.
M summilux 21 : 5000 € => ~4000
M summilux 24 : 5000 € => ~4000
M elmar 24 f/3.8 : 1800 € => ~1400
Click to expand...
which would make the new Nocti $9000 and change...

actually, i read somewhere that they just threw an euro sign instead of the dollar in front of the number. if true, that means the price will be $8000.

(here's to hoping that there will be a glut of sales on the old slow f/1 so that i might actually be able to afford one 😀 )

does anyone know the close focusing range on the new lenses yet? Roger, peut être?
 
maddoc said:
old slowf/1 😱

I just wonder about the difference of the faster new 1:0.95 compared to the old 1:1 in real life ... 🙄
Click to expand...

With the new 0.95 Noctilux you can finally put a UV filter in front of it. With the theoretically non existant resulting light loss you get a net total of an f/1 lens. 😀
 
gdi said:
Yes, while I personally think the prices are absurd (and a bit disappointing, I admit), it is Leica's choice to pursue any pricing strategy they feel appropriate.
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GDI, SR1,
Good posts, good to see that there is also people with some marketing expertise to put some business reality into the many wishful thinking of many on this forum 😉
To summarize :
- Leica cannot compete with the Nikons and Canons due to the enormous R&D expenses needed.
- The DRF is a niche market.
- The M mount system is an expensive one. Even CV is if you compare to the normal D60, EOS1000 with a zoom kit.
- the Leica brand is thought of as a luxury brand.
Therefore Leica probably decided to go the full way with their niche market strategy. High luxury items for high revenues amateurs. (probably why you see a Automatic mode on the M8.2). Skimming, creaming, high profits on small volumes.
Leica, like any company, has a marketing department. They don't act to fail, so I doubt that would engage in such a strategy without doing the homework.
Only hole in their strategy IMO, the growing disconnect with the professional and long term customer base. You can say you are the best, but if you don't deliver on it, your brand value will diminish as well as the price you can ask for it.
 
cam said:
which would make the new Nocti $9000 and change...
Click to expand...
M Noctilux 50 f/0.95 : 8000 EUR =>~ 6400 EUR ~ 9000US$ excl. V.A.T.
M summilux 21 : 5000 EUR => ~4000EUR ~ 5600US$ excl. V.A.T.
M summilux 24 : 5000 EUR => ~4000EUR ~ 5600US$ excl. V.A.T.
M elmar 24 f/3.8 : 1800 EUR => ~1400EUR ~1989 US$ excl. V.A.T.
but your suggestion with a lower price at USA can be true.

Another rumour - not from Chasseur d´images. There is a rumour about a MF DSLR Studio camera named "S2"
Use
https://dpinfo.dpma.de/protect/mar.html
and add at "Aktenzeichen" the number "302008040929.0"
As you remember the former "S1" was a camera which could be used with different mounts (M, R, NikonF...)
A coming "S2" also explains following answer in the last FTD Interview (29.08.08) with Dr Kaufmann
http://www.ftd.de/koepfe/😛ortr%E4t_Andreas_Kaufmann_Der_Selbstabl%F6ser/406872.html?p=2
Kaufmann in FTD said:
1989 diskutiert der Vorstand ein Papier der Entwicklungsabteilung: "Warum die Digitalkamera die Zukunft ist". Kaufmann wirft die Arme in die Höhe. "'89! Da wussten 99,5 Prozent der Menschen nicht einmal, was eine Digitalkamera ist." Er springt auf und wuchtet einen klobigen, schwarzen Kasten auf den Konferenztisch - die erste digitale Kamera von Leica aus dem Jahr 1996. 38.000 DM kostet das Gerät damals - untauglich für den Massenmarkt. Vier Jahre später wäre eine kompakte Digitalkamera möglich gewesen. "Und wieder zögerte man. Geht das? Was kostet das? Wie soll man das machen?", schimpft Kaufmann. Das Management glaubte, für hochwertige Analogkameras bliebe genug Platz.
Click to expand...
 
TJV said:
Man. Some of you guys need to chill out.
I'm not made of money but I can see myself one day buying the 24mm Summilux.
Click to expand...

Me to, provided focus shift on a M8 does not spoil the party. In this context a 35 lux asph II with noticable focus shift problems addressed and eliminated would have been a great announcement as well.
 
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