Leica R vs M prices

[henry fool]

Tell me why Leica R lenses are so much cheaper than M?

It really bugs me when I see a nice deal on a 35mm Summilux and then looking again I see that it's an R lens.

Is it purely demand driven? When the R system was alive did an R lens cost the same as it's equivalent M mount version?

 

[Ronald M]

Demand/supply.

All you can do with a R lens is use film, DMR, or adapt to another system and lose auto diaphragm. None are great choices.

 

[rogerzilla]

The R system is dead, that's why. When R cameras were still being made, they were never really taken up by the market, which preferred Canikon. Too big, too strange-looking and too expensive for little gain.

The M system, on the other hand, is still in production and there is no quality alternative to the M mount in the interchangeable lens rangefinder market.

 

[dave lackey]

Demand/supply.

All you can do with a R lens is use film, DMR, or adapt to another system and lose auto diaphragm. None are great choices.

Ah, not so. The R lenses are some of the best that Leica has ever made. The bodies are damned good as well. I thoroughly am enjoying my R4 and others on this forum as well. Right now, the darling is the M-body... for good reason but not for enough reason to sell an M3 for $2000 at KEH. The R bodies have been the red-headed step child for no apparent reason than the quality and following of the RF bodies. For the price of a mint M3, I can buy 10 R4 bodies; or a Nikon F6 and 2 R4 bodies; or three R8 bodies and a 50mm Summicron F2.

I prefer the R4 over any Nikon film SLR I have ever owned. 😉 I haven't yet owned an F6, so I cannot comment about that one.🙂 But, using an R4 with my M3 is a great combination. One metered, one not. One you think too much, the other you may think too little... ha! Ying and yang at it's best but they compliment each other so well. Would love an R6.2, or R8 or R9! Quality cameras all.

The R lenses are superior lenses and if one doubts that, check the web site of Thorsten Overgaard. Or Steve Huff. or.... you get the idea. Better yet, try one yourself.

Right now, R lenses and bodies are a damned bargain. So, don't tell everyone because the Canon DSLR users and even Nikon DSLR users are buying them up with adaptors for good reason!😱

 

[dave lackey]

The R system is dead, that's why. When R cameras were still being made, they were never really taken up by the market, which preferred Canikon. Too big, too strange-looking and too expensive for little gain.

The M system, on the other hand, is still in production and there is no quality alternative to the M mount in the interchangeable lens rangefinder market.

Actually, if not for the recession, Leica would already have the R10 out on the market. They are still considering it as there is a following not only of Leica users but because Canon and Nikon users are buying the R lenses up for use on the DSLR's.

The R system is a great system. And this is from a 40 year Nikon user!🙂

 

[dave lackey]

Tell me why Leica R lenses are so much cheaper than M?

It really bugs me when I see a nice deal on a 35mm Summilux and then looking again I see that it's an R lens.

Is it purely demand driven? When the R system was alive did an R lens cost the same as it's equivalent M mount version?

Is it purely demand driven? Nothing is purely anything. But, yes, demand has a lot to do with it. That is why M prices are out of sight and ridiculous. Check KEH to confirm.

R lenses are going up too! Won't take long and they will no longer be the bargain they have been recently. Part of it is demand by Nikon and Canon users buying them up. Another part is inflation that always comes after a recession, not that this mother of all recessions is over...far from it.😉

 

[dave lackey]

And for the record, I am tired of the bad rap given the R series. Most people just regurgitate what they hear and never have owned one.

But, the bad rap works quite well for me, and maybe the BS that is out there is in my favor, because I can buy any number of R bodies for pocket change and fit them with fantastic R lenses that are relative bargains as well.:angel:

 

[Keith]

Actually, if not for the recession, Leica would already have the R10 out on the market. They are still considering it as there is a following not only of Leica users but because Canon and Nikon users are buying the R lenses up for use on the DSLR's.

The R system is a great system. And this is from a 40 year Nikon user!🙂

Is this an Atlanta based rumour ... or can you substantiate this comment? 😀

I'm interested that after years of being a happy Nikon user you're so enamoured with the leica R system Dave. By the time any of us get around to testing your theory the prices of the R system will have gone through the roof as well! 😛

 

[henry fool]

I know the R system has been phased out and that there's a whole new market for M glass now but when both systems were available did an R mount Summilux cost the same as an M mount Summilux?

 

[dave lackey]

Is this an Atlanta based rumour ... or can you substantiate this comment? 😀

I'm interested that after years of being a happy Nikon user you're so enamoured with the leica R system Dave. By the time any of us get around to testing your theory the prices of the R system will have gone through the roof as well! 😛

Substantiation is in the pudding. I am currently using the R4 with ISO 100 film and the 50 Cron for a series of projects (outside only, mainly architectural, street photography, etc.) and the M3 with Tri-X for portraitures.

I lucked into using the R system at a local camera store that was finishing selling all of it's estate R bodies obtained some time ago. The prices were amazingly low. This allowed me to trade gear and not further burden our finances after being out of work 2 1/2 years and now being a 24/7 caregiver.

The R4 and Summicron appeared perfectly comfortable and capable in the shop. Imagine my surprise to see the images from the first roll. I pick up several rolls and scans tomorrow from the lab downtown.😎

Like I said, a month of using the R4 and I am super happy! Going back to my Nikons is like dropping down from the 1995 E420 to our old 1992 Toyota Camry. Familiar territory, but not as much quality or feel IMO.:angel:

Again, setting the R4 up complementing the M3 has been cool and very satisfying. So, yeah, I guess it is Atlanta based...just my 2 cents worth.🙂

But, I still use the Nikons, and am happy with them... just not in the same bag or at the same time as the Leicas...too confusing at my age. It is nice to use something different and the two Leicas fit the bill.

And you're right, with inflation coming along, anything with a red dot is going to be out of a lot people's price range.

 

[dave lackey]

Oh, just another example of the complementary nature of these two rigs...

The Summarit on the M focuses in the same direction from infinity as the Summicron R AND to get from infinity to around 10 feet or so, both lenses require about the same amount of movement of the focusing ring (about 3/4 inch if that). So, when I walk around with either lens at infinity and need to focus at anything from 10 feet or more, I don't really notice the difference in the lenses. Could be either one I am using and focusing is very fast and accurate.

Now, with the Nikons, I get all tangled up going from the M3 and Summarit to anything in my Nikon bag.... that is why I keep a Nikon bag and a separate Leica bag.😛 Left brain right brain.

 

[Rob-F]

I have and use both Nikon and Leica SLR bodies and glass. Despite the excellent viewfinders on the Leica SLRs, I seem to prefer the Nikons for the way they feel in my hands. And while I like the M6-like "red dot" exposure display of my R6, I don't like the display in the R5 or R4. I think I'd like the meter needle display of the R3, but I don't own one. When it comes to lenses, I can see something "special" about the Leica glass compared to Nikon, but I don't know what it is. Whatever it is, it's enough that I am going to experiment with using the Leica lenses on my Nikon bodies. This hard to describe quality keeps me from selling off my R lenses. I may even be willing to put up without auto-aperture. How hard can it be? Open up to focus and close down for exposure.

 

[dof]

I know the R system has been phased out and that there's a whole new market for M glass now but when both systems were available did an R mount Summilux cost the same as an M mount Summilux?

I don't have any dealer price lists or old Shutterbug ads to back this up, but from memory and roughly speaking, yes they were equivalent in price when new. Especially late in the game when the ROM updates for the R line came into production.

It really bugs me when I see a nice deal on a 35mm Summilux and then looking again I see that it's an R lens.

Can you do me a favor and drop me a line the next time this happens to you? I'd love to have a copy of that lens!

 

[Keith]

Out of curiosity who of note fixes these Leica SLR's when something goes wrong?

 

[ferider]

Sherry just fixed my dad's SL, Keith. Super job, too.

 

[dave lackey]

Good question, Keith...DAG is about to receive my Summicron R 50mm for adjustment ($50). He has plenty of parts for R and SL bodies, so I presume that he does work on them.

The cool thing here is that one can buy R bodies from $99 to $500 ranging from the R4 to the R8! So, maybe another body would offset the cost of a repair? Even KEH still has some good buys on these bodies.🙂

Like Memphis...I have about $500 total in my one lens rig. A 28-70 zoom lens would only be another $399.

 

[dave lackey]

I have and use both Nikon and Leica SLR bodies and glass. Despite the excellent viewfinders on the Leica SLRs, I seem to prefer the Nikons for the way they feel in my hands. And while I like the M6-like "red dot" exposure display of my R6, I don't like the display in the R5 or R4. I think I'd like the meter needle display of the R3, but I don't own one. When it comes to lenses, I can see something "special" about the Leica glass compared to Nikon, but I don't know what it is. Whatever it is, it's enough that I am going to experiment with using the Leica lenses on my Nikon bodies. This hard to describe quality keeps me from selling off my R lenses. I may even be willing to put up without auto-aperture. How hard can it be? Open up to focus and close down for exposure.

Dang, sounds like an M6 and an R6 would be a superb pairing!🙂

 

[rogerzilla]

Wasn't one of the R lenses the sharpest lens (for the 35mm format) ever tested in recent times? I woiuldn't expect the wide angles to be as good as the M wide angles, though, because of the inverted telephoto design.

 

[Doug]

I recall reading a quote from some top exec at Leica to the effect that there would be a solution for the orphaned R system. Presumably a non-modular digital R10... perhaps economic realities are holding it back. But then the S2 came along, not much larger, and with a totally incompatible lens system.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The few professionals I knew who used Leica Rs in the 1970s and 80s (for the lenses, of course) tended to be of the opinion that the original Leicaflexes were significantly better made, but very heavy, and that some of the R-series bodies were less reliable than they should have been. I can't remember which ones, because I wasn't paying much attention, but I think it was the first electronic ones.

Overall, though, what other than supply and demand governs prices on the used market? If there's no advertising to create an artificial demand (as there won't be, for used gear), the main factors are (a) fashion and (b) utility.

Finally, yes, like Doug, I recall senior people at Leica saying that the R would not be orphaned, but I've seen no evidence of anything new. Than again, who expected the S2?

Cheers,

R.