Leica vs MF image quality

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mfogiel said:
- at this level of image chain ( Ilford XP2 on the one hand and Nikon Coolscan 9000 on the other) the lenses tested are not a limiting , or even not a greatly differentiating factor. .

This was said already, several times. The question of resolution does not play a role at all here, in this context. ALSO and in general because one cannot expect the lenses to be a limiting factor if film usually can reproduce only 30% of their maximum resolution ?

Tho scans are not suited to compare detail reproduction, because the results are only relative to the scanners performance, the better detail reproduction of the larger neg comes thru in your 100% crops anyway. Prints would tell the whole truth.

bertram
 
I put on my hip boots and waded through the bullsh*t and urban legends in this thread. It's a good reminder of why I spend less and less time on "photo" sites and more time shooting and printing.

I personally shoot 35mm, MF, and large format. I develop and print all of my own B&W work. And I print, in a darkroom, my favorite color work. So my conclusions are based on experience. And I wouldn't give up any format that I use - because they are all useful in different circumstances.

What else did I learn from this thread? You can't argue with a Leicaphile.

Here's a link to dispel the urban myth that MF lenses lack resolution:

http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html
 
monochromejrnl said:
magnus - a case of cognitive dissonance?

The name is not Magnus but Magus. Refers to the historic Simon Magus (died 65 pcn in Rome) , a magician of the Gnosis (Finding), who once was adored as a god (theios aner) by his disciples.

bertram:angel:
 
Geez Bertram perhaps you ought to find another elswhere where cocktails are served 😀 - lighten up! Once again, we all have different opinions and 'feelings' for the various bits and pieces of equipment we use and have tried. I don't think the idea of this thread is to unilaterally decide what is correct for you- rather a place for the OP to hear some varying ideas on what exactly we see when we look at MF and Leica made images. We all see differently.

Krosya said:
I was reading through some posts here and realized that many people here have some Medium Format RF (as well as others) cameras besides their Leicas and other 35mm RFs. So, my question is - how do you think Leica, Zeiss, CV and other lenses compare to those MF ones...
...So, what do you think, after using both - is it really worth it to have both systems? are they pretty close? Lets say if largest photo would be 11x14 inches - would I see a difference between the two systems?

I've much more experience with LF than MF and 35mm combined, does that make my insights into what I've learned/seen through my RF & MF cameras any less valuable to him? Perhaps. I offer my answers to his question because I think I maybe can help. If you disagree with some of us, fine- but disagreement need not be distasteful nor personal. It really just gets tiresome.
 
I have to get this apology off my chest. I have considerable experience shooting and printing 35mm up to LF and this is what my previous comments were based upon. ...Based upon shooting, developing, printing and considering images and my ability to achieve stated goals. Looking at them and not giving rat's ass which camera it was shot on because in all cases I owned that camera and had no agenda. I now know how superficial I have been and that I should have ignored the bleedin'obvious and looked deeper and off to one side.

While MF is not inherently superior to 35mm as a whole it is inherently superior in certain respects should you have certain goals...just as 35mm is in other respects with the two being NO different in some cases, again depending upon criteria amply explained before.

Most of the claptrap still being promulgated, is, I am sorry, UTTER BOLLOCKS touted by the inexperienced or people using convoluted arguments to avoid a loss of face...or both. Lots of people have made valuable comments, usually based on experience, as to the relative merits of the formats and areas where the differences (not to suggest superiorities) exist. Some persist in muddying the actually very clear waters. I can choose formats knowing what I get. I choose depending on what I want. I have yet to be let down. Some of the resistance here prevents this understanding being readily absorbed by those who do not have this experience. Magus appears to have tried to legitimise his previous posts on the basis of his very narrow requirements...an issue amply covere in others' postings about formats, print sizes and 'look'. These needs are very real (I desire a similar look sometimes) but do not exist to the exclusion of all others. This narrowing of the argument was to be expected.
 
sepiareverb said:
Geez Bertram perhaps you ought to find another elswhere where cocktails are served 😀 - lighten up! Once again, we all have different opinions and 'feelings' for the various bits and pieces of equipment we use and have tried. I don't think the idea of this thread is to unilaterally decide what is correct for you- rather a place for the OP to hear some varying ideas on what exactly we see when we look at MF and Leica made images. We all see differently.
.

This was defintively NOT what the the controverse was about. It's been about facts, not about about any perception relative to an individual, tho there was the attempt to bend it all to this direction.

To say it precisely, the discussion had been exactlcy about the opposite to what you claim above..🙄

bertram
 
Wow, lets cool down a bit folks.

Magus' arguments sounds reasonable, but it is fundamentally flawed. It assumes optical resolving power is an absolute indictor of image quality irrespective of the system. (Obviously cameras manufacturers don't believe that or the f-number range on all lenses would terminate at the same relative aperture.) Since what is of interest is the final result of the system, reducing systems to similar physical limits (for example, same film area) would not show anything useful.

What any photographic system needs to be tested in reference to is the human visual system. There are standard viewing conditions which makes comparisons very easy. As far as image quality, there is no doubt bigger is better. As far as the right tool for the job, then the answer can be very different. I think there is a personal reflex that the quality statement is saying 35mm is no good. That is not a logical conclusion as 35mm creates excellent images. The format has other benefits beyond simply image quality as well.
 
The question don't exist. The Medium Format frame is absolutely better, not only in respect to the Leica M or Zeiss Ikon ZM cameras, but in respect to the all 35 mm cameras. In 1930, when was born the Leica II, there are the Zeiss Ikon Super Ikonta or Voigtlander Bessa models, in 4,5x6, 6x6 and 6x9 frame. Why the Leica concept was winner? For compactness and lightness, large selections of formidable lenses, more numbers of shots: all true winning cards in the photojournalist play. In the architectural or landscape shots, the bigger dimensions of the medium format films make the difference.
For the same reasons, the Nikon F and the others professional SLR 35 mm have won the medium format SLR Hasselblads and Rolleis: moreover, a shot of a Planar 80 surely won a shot of a Nikkor 50, in therms of pure image quality. In this case also, the choice between the 35 mm or medium format is simply the job: street photography on 35 mm, landscape or architectural work in medium format.
Naturally, the street photography is very superb also with the Mamiya 6 or 7, but whit only 12 or 10 shots, while the Leica M7 or the Zeiss Ikon ZM allow 36 shots.
Ciao.
 
Finder said:
Wow, lets cool down a bit folks.

Magus' arguments sounds reasonable, but it is fundamentally flawed. It assumes optical resolving power is an absolute indicator of image quality irrespective of the system. (Obviously cameras manufacturers don't believe that or the f-number range on all lenses would terminate at the same relative aperture.) Since what is of interest is the final result of the system, reducing systems to similar physical limits (for example, same film area) would not show anything useful.

What any photographic system needs to be tested in reference to is the human visual system. There are standard viewing conditions which makes comparisons very easy. As far as image quality, there is no doubt bigger is better. As far as the right tool for the job, then the answer can be very different. I think there is a personal reflex that the quality statement is saying 35mm is no good. That is not a logical conclusion as 35mm creates excellent images. The format has other benefits beyond simply image quality as well.

EXACTLY.

The fact that most 35mm lenses can out-resolve medium format lenses is a well-known fact. These are absolute numbers of lines per millimeter which can be directly compared, and there is no argument that 80 is larger than 50 for example. But Magus, surely you understand that this is not what the OP was asking (even though one could literally/simply interpret the question that way.) Surely you understand that the OP was asking about differences in the end result. Magus, you argument has shifted over the course of this discussion. In the beginning your statements indicated that you thought 35mm Leica could compete in quality with MF. Later in the discussion, once you realized the error of your opinion, you began to narrow the argument and restrict the condition of your position to comparing same sized neg areas. If this was indeed your only argument from the beginning, you could have simply quoted resolution numbers, and not talked vaguely about qualities. Magus, you are a talented writer and have tried to extricate yourself from the morass of your opinion on this issue by altering/narrowing your argument, but I think you've been caught out. This is my assessment of this discussion, and I'm quite confident in its accuracy.

Hey, it's all entertainment. No bad feelings on my part. Sometimes it's fun just to argue/discuss/debate. 🙂
 
Magus,

I agree that your responses could use a consolidation. Why don't you write an essay on this thread's two topics and post it in a new thread?
 
>>In the beginning your statements indicated that you thought 35mm Leica could >>compete in quality with MF.

<I still do, and how!!!

I am afraid of what comes now: You will explain to us , what "quality" really is, because we all just did not get it up 'til today.

Re- reading the whole thread i now think it would have been better to concentrate on the (resolution) limiting factor of Film to get this silly issue of the lens performance outta the way from the beginning on.

Maybe this would have saved us all your sophistical attempts to prove the above quoted nonsense.

That 's it for me now, I got enuff of it , I do not feel like investing one more word to comment this incredible nonsense statement above.

Bertram
 
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