jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Why would they do that when Mr. Lee said just the opposite?JoeV said:
Leica's M9 and Mini M plan
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mani
Well-known
Jaap - has Mr Lee said the opposite? I personally don't think Leica will discontinue the M8, but I'm still of the opinion, based on what I've read in LFI and elsewhere, that Leica intends to release a 'stepping-stone' model to the M line.
And the Summarit lenses seem to me to confirm that business model.
My unscientific prediction: announcement of the FF M9 and the dM-CL at photokina, with launch dates of around spring the following year (with an inevitable delay of the FF model, of course).
Of course, as we both know, my pov on the forthcoming digital Ms didn't get much of a hearing on the leica camera forum... ;-)
And the Summarit lenses seem to me to confirm that business model.
My unscientific prediction: announcement of the FF M9 and the dM-CL at photokina, with launch dates of around spring the following year (with an inevitable delay of the FF model, of course).
Of course, as we both know, my pov on the forthcoming digital Ms didn't get much of a hearing on the leica camera forum... ;-)
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
He suggested an M camera slotted under the M8, and I agree, have said so before, that the Summarits point in that direction.
As for a M9, he also said that the M8 would remain the flagship camera. But I am still sceptical,as, imo, despite all rumours of varying credibility, a 24x36 rangefinder sensor and IR filtering in the camera are a pipedream at the present time and technology.
What we may see on the Photokina, in my perception, is an M8-2 with slightly higher resolution on a 1.33 sensor, narrower framelines, tweaked rangefinder, external WB sensor, slightly better damped shutter sound and a better Jpeg engine.
And I am sure Leica will announce an a-la-carte program for the M8 in the near future.
As for a M9, he also said that the M8 would remain the flagship camera. But I am still sceptical,as, imo, despite all rumours of varying credibility, a 24x36 rangefinder sensor and IR filtering in the camera are a pipedream at the present time and technology.
What we may see on the Photokina, in my perception, is an M8-2 with slightly higher resolution on a 1.33 sensor, narrower framelines, tweaked rangefinder, external WB sensor, slightly better damped shutter sound and a better Jpeg engine.
And I am sure Leica will announce an a-la-carte program for the M8 in the near future.
veraikon
xpanner
You are right ! The only direct source is the interview with Dr. Andreas Kaufmann at the ECHO-journalSocke said:
http://www.echoonline.at/echo/salzburg/index.php?we_objectID=3330
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rxmd
May contain traces of nut
And that interview doesn't really say anything at all ("If you were a Leica developer, and if you were to find a way - and, nudge nudge, everybody note that I am using the subjunctive mood - to put a full-frame sensor in there, you would probably do it, wouldn't you?")
Since everybody already knows that if Leica can get it to work for an acceptable amount of money, they will do it, Kaufmann is not really saying anything at all except playing with the wishful thinking of his readership. This is not a "source" for anything substantial either. The whole discussion is a lot of hot air.
Philipp
Since everybody already knows that if Leica can get it to work for an acceptable amount of money, they will do it, Kaufmann is not really saying anything at all except playing with the wishful thinking of his readership. This is not a "source" for anything substantial either. The whole discussion is a lot of hot air.
Philipp
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
rxmd said:
On top of that, he HAS to say something like that. Zeiss Ikon, Leica's age-old rival, has stated time and time again that they would only build a full frame rangefinder. Technologically ZI is far more in the forefront of digital imaging than Leica is, so imagine ZI bringing out a FF rangefinder before Leica - and in M mount too, without Leica having whetted the appetite of their customers.
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Ben Z
Veteran
jaapv said:
That would be like when Konica brought out the Hexar RF when Leica was adamant that autoexposure couldn't be incorporated into the existing M body frame...or, when Epson/Cosina brought out the R-D1 when Leica was adamant that current technology made an M-mount digital impossible 😀 Leica does some of its best work when playing catch-up 😉
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Well said, Benson. 🙂 However, I have a feeling the present management is not too keen on that situation. 😉
mani
Well-known
Oh sorry Jaap - it wasn't my intention to attribute to you opinions that weren't your's. I assumed that you were one (of the many) who reacted angrily at the mere suggestion of a medium-priced digital-M when I brought it up over on the 'other' M8 forum.
I do think there was some statement about the FF M somewhere coming from Mr Lee - I believe I remember him saying something delphic about how it must be 'the wish of every M user to have a fullframe digital M sometime in the future' or something of the sort.
A man in that position doesn't joke or tease about such things, considering what's at stake. So I assume it's under development at the very least.
PS: but maybe I'm mixing-up the statements referred to above, on reflection.
Of course it's all a mystery wrapped in an enigma - as always when discussing vaporware! 🙂
I do think there was some statement about the FF M somewhere coming from Mr Lee - I believe I remember him saying something delphic about how it must be 'the wish of every M user to have a fullframe digital M sometime in the future' or something of the sort.
A man in that position doesn't joke or tease about such things, considering what's at stake. So I assume it's under development at the very least.
PS: but maybe I'm mixing-up the statements referred to above, on reflection.
Of course it's all a mystery wrapped in an enigma - as always when discussing vaporware! 🙂
amin_sabet
Established
The new Summarits will make good sense for a compact M. If they can bring in a 1.3x crop compact M at around the current price of the M7, I would think it would do well. Smaller sensor than that and I think they'd need to drop the price further. As for the M9, I'm guessing it would sell for 2K more than the current M8 if released today. Pricewise it would compete with the 1DsMk III, but feature wise they are so different that they don't truly compete with one another. The Nikon D3 and M8 have a similar price, but I don't see many too people having a hard time choosing between them.
As for this not being news, I sort of disagree. True, it is rumor until Leica confirms it. However, if this, as the OP says, is coming from a reputable newspaper and is not clearly identified in the article as speculation, then it deserves attention IMO.
One more bit of speculation on my end. The compact M might not have an M mount at all. This could be the "true heir" to the Diglux 2. A high quality fixed lens camera with a Four Thirds sensor and significantly more compact than the M8 could be a winner. I'd personally prefer a digital CL, but I'm not sure which would generate more profit.
As for this not being news, I sort of disagree. True, it is rumor until Leica confirms it. However, if this, as the OP says, is coming from a reputable newspaper and is not clearly identified in the article as speculation, then it deserves attention IMO.
One more bit of speculation on my end. The compact M might not have an M mount at all. This could be the "true heir" to the Diglux 2. A high quality fixed lens camera with a Four Thirds sensor and significantly more compact than the M8 could be a winner. I'd personally prefer a digital CL, but I'm not sure which would generate more profit.
mani
Well-known
amin_sabet said:
Well I went back to the LFI interview with Mr Lee over breakfast this morning - and there indeed he does say that there will be a range of M options, in a range of price-brackets.
If I have time tonight I'll copy the relevant paragraph.
mani
Well-known
sitemistic said:
I'd say it's obvious that this isn't what Lee meant. But the fact that the Summarit line has shown the way with a modestly cut-down specification shows that Leica can produce a simplified M without rebadging a Panasonic product.
amin_sabet
Established
True, but the current Summarit line becomes awkward (in terms of angle of view) if coupled to an APS-C or smaller sensor, and I'm not sure a 1.3x crop sensor camera could be made either compact or inexpensive compared to the M8.
zerrax
Member
Leica mini M?
Leica mini M?
Would the Leica mini M look something like this?
I hope so!
Leica mini M?
Would the Leica mini M look something like this?
I hope so!
Chyn
Established
Although the new Panaleica's specs are appealing, I hope that's not the extent of Leica's mini M-D endeavor. Come on Leica, how infeasible is a sub $2000 digital rangefinder that accepts existing M-mount lenses?
zerrax
Member
Leica mini M
Leica mini M
I hope also that their "mini M" is not a fixed lens solution...
otherwise I think I will switch to Nikon D3 with Zeiss 35 F2.0
I am not in the mood for waiting any longer for a decent
or affordable digital M rangefinder camera solution
Leica mini M
I hope also that their "mini M" is not a fixed lens solution...
otherwise I think I will switch to Nikon D3 with Zeiss 35 F2.0
I am not in the mood for waiting any longer for a decent
or affordable digital M rangefinder camera solution
georgef
Well-known
now if this forum is so opinionated abou thte next move by LEICA, one can imagine what the people who's money is on the line are going through...
prediction: I do not mean to be sarcastic, but an R10 is a dream! there is no Af lineup to attach it to, and LEICa cannot compete with the CANIKONS in terms of top-level body!...and if the idea is to keep the ability to use the R lens lineup, the cheapest R item LEICa can bring out is a R-to-CANON/NIKON/SONY adapter (tongue in cheek here).
As for the M lineup, I will make no predictions except that we are, really, not talking about a camera company with a star current body, we are talking about a camera company with a SINGLE current body: there is a big difference there..I think Darwin refferd to this as "diversify or die".
I sure hope they come up with something good, thats all I can say.
The photographic world will be much smaller and flatter if LEICA becomes a memory.
prediction: I do not mean to be sarcastic, but an R10 is a dream! there is no Af lineup to attach it to, and LEICa cannot compete with the CANIKONS in terms of top-level body!...and if the idea is to keep the ability to use the R lens lineup, the cheapest R item LEICa can bring out is a R-to-CANON/NIKON/SONY adapter (tongue in cheek here).
As for the M lineup, I will make no predictions except that we are, really, not talking about a camera company with a star current body, we are talking about a camera company with a SINGLE current body: there is a big difference there..I think Darwin refferd to this as "diversify or die".
I sure hope they come up with something good, thats all I can say.
The photographic world will be much smaller and flatter if LEICA becomes a memory.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
I don't think that a CL-D would kill the M8 or M9. Take a look at the Nikon or Canon line up. The D300 / D700 / D3 all play very nicely together. Leica desperately needs a tiered product line. They can't survive selling only $5500 bodies and lenses that cost as much as a used car.
CL-D
- Sony made 12MP APS sensor from the Nikon D300. This is a state of the art chip and delivers superb performance. For street and documentary work the extra DOF provided by the APS format would be of benefit.
- M-Mount
- Fast lenses specifically made for APS. Maybe they cover x1.3 (APS-H) to be future proof. These lenses could be smaller and cheaper than the traditional M glass. You could maybe use these lenses on the M9 in an APS crop mode.
- I don't care if the sensor doesn't support every M or LTM lens ever made, as long as I can get the equivalent of 28/35/50/90 for it. Personally I really only need 35 and 50.
- A RF unit with framelines as accurate as the meterless analog bodies.
Framing accuracy on the M8 is a joke.
- Compact, solid, WEATHER SEALED body.
- I don't care where it is made as long as the QC is up to snuff.
- $1899 - $2499 (I'll take two please)
That said I would even take this camera with a fixed lens that is the equivalent of a 2/35mm.
CL-D
- Sony made 12MP APS sensor from the Nikon D300. This is a state of the art chip and delivers superb performance. For street and documentary work the extra DOF provided by the APS format would be of benefit.
- M-Mount
- Fast lenses specifically made for APS. Maybe they cover x1.3 (APS-H) to be future proof. These lenses could be smaller and cheaper than the traditional M glass. You could maybe use these lenses on the M9 in an APS crop mode.
- I don't care if the sensor doesn't support every M or LTM lens ever made, as long as I can get the equivalent of 28/35/50/90 for it. Personally I really only need 35 and 50.
- A RF unit with framelines as accurate as the meterless analog bodies.
Framing accuracy on the M8 is a joke.
- Compact, solid, WEATHER SEALED body.
- I don't care where it is made as long as the QC is up to snuff.
- $1899 - $2499 (I'll take two please)
That said I would even take this camera with a fixed lens that is the equivalent of a 2/35mm.
mani
Well-known
Hmmm - now while I hope Leica's ambition with the digital CL is not limited to that level, I'm a darn sucker for these sorts of beautiful kits... That really looks gorgeous as an everyday carry-around.
Must resist.
jmarcus
Well-known
I agree with many people here and others not so much.
I liked what Emile de Leon had to say.
But when I think about Leica's problems two things come to mind
The 1st is the aging rangefinder photographer. But I should say that there are tons of hipsters kids who are interested in rangefinder photography. It seems to me that Leica should find a way to fuel their interest with a digital rangefinder. We have all read each other's wishes of what that should be.
The 2nd issue is the quality. So many people here are SO proud of where they have been and what they have done with their film Leica's. Quality has to be improved and once done, it needs to be marketed.
I'll add a 3rd comment, Leica needs a big cash infusion to survive and that being said need to reduce the cost of their digital cameras not worry about upgrades and release a new M every three years. I'm sure lots of time goes into making a commitment to an owners investment. But we are in the digital age, and sh*t gets outdated fast. So Leica needs to change its customers expectations. Do we really think that Canon or Nikon care about releasing the next latest and greatest because someone spent $5K on a DSLR, NO! They want to sell cameras, and pros and consumers a like want to have the latest and greatest. Leica needs to take advantage of this stupid behavior. Leica is here to make money and we are here to spend it.
I liked what Emile de Leon had to say.
But when I think about Leica's problems two things come to mind
The 1st is the aging rangefinder photographer. But I should say that there are tons of hipsters kids who are interested in rangefinder photography. It seems to me that Leica should find a way to fuel their interest with a digital rangefinder. We have all read each other's wishes of what that should be.
The 2nd issue is the quality. So many people here are SO proud of where they have been and what they have done with their film Leica's. Quality has to be improved and once done, it needs to be marketed.
I'll add a 3rd comment, Leica needs a big cash infusion to survive and that being said need to reduce the cost of their digital cameras not worry about upgrades and release a new M every three years. I'm sure lots of time goes into making a commitment to an owners investment. But we are in the digital age, and sh*t gets outdated fast. So Leica needs to change its customers expectations. Do we really think that Canon or Nikon care about releasing the next latest and greatest because someone spent $5K on a DSLR, NO! They want to sell cameras, and pros and consumers a like want to have the latest and greatest. Leica needs to take advantage of this stupid behavior. Leica is here to make money and we are here to spend it.