Looking for a film rangefinder

[Doktorkay]

Goodmorning everyone,
I hope this is the right place to ask what will follow, if not let me know that I will move the post immediately.

I'm looking for a rangefinder but still haven't found the one that's right for me.

I have identified the features I would like it to have and list them below:
- film rangefinder 😀
- interchangeable lenses
- 2 solutions:
completely manual or with some help (e.g. aperture priority or light meter..) but with the ability to shoot manually (if possible, shoot even with no batteries)
- robust, reliable and "compact"
- price under € 600/700 (lens included)

To give you an idea, I was looking at Minolta CLE or Canon 7 or P, but they are not easy to find here in Italy.

Thank you very much in advance for any help you can give me.

Francesco

 

[nickthetasmaniac]

I think the Canon 7/P would both be good options. Great cameras in their own right, and the LTM mount opens you to heaps of great lens options.

At that budget you will struggle to find anything M mount with a lens. Even the non-Leica stuff like the Voigtlander Bessas and Minolta CLE are well over that nowadays (in solid working condition anyway).

 

[Doktorkay]

I think the Canon 7/P would both be good options. Great cameras in their own right, and the LTM mount opens you to heaps of great lens options.

At that budget you will struggle to find anything M mount with a lens. Even the non-Leica stuff like the Voigtlander Bessas and Minolta CLE are well over that nowadays (in solid working condition anyway).

Thanks a lot for the answer!

It's true, in fact I was looking for Canon cameras because they seemed like a good choice but there aren't many around here.

Both for this and to look for some solution similar to the one you wrote (CLE or Bessa, for example) I was looking at some Japanese seller, but I don't know whether to venture into a purchase from that far away. Anyone have experience shopping on eBay in this regard?

 

[jjcha]

Yes, to add to what Nick said, an M-mount camera is basically out of your price range.

I spent the last year trying to decide if I wanted to buy a Minolta CLE, and I saw the price go up from maybe in your price range to much more than that.

I watched prices carefully in Japan and the United States, as I live/have friends in both places. I think if you look hard today you can get, at least in the United States, a Minolta CLE+40mm F2 for about $900. But it's not so common, and many sellers will try to ask for more. And they're more expensive than that in Japan. I was shocked to see how expensive Voigtlander Bessas as well as Zeiss Ikon ZMs are now.

The Canons are absolutely beautiful cameras though. You may get a wonderful fully mechanical camera in your price range. Good luck!

 

[jjcha]

Both for this and to look for some solution similar to the one you wrote (CLE or Bessa, for example) I was looking at some Japanese seller, but I don't know whether to venture into a purchase from that far away. Anyone have experience shopping on eBay in this regard?

I can answer this -- for Japan you can try to look on eBay, but most CLEs right now, body only, in good working condition will cost you at least $600, and that is before shipping. A cheap price for a very good condition CLE will be around $800 or more.

A good used lens, such as the Rokkor 40mm F2 will likely cost you $350-$450 or more.

Most of the eBay sellers in Japan will ship internationally. Sellers in Japan who only want to sell in Japan usually use different sites. Just double check the eBay posting to make sure they will ship to Italy (which is almost always yes). And if they have a good seller rating, generally most of the time you can rely them to be trustworthy.

The problem right now is that there is no EMS shipping from Japan to most of the world. EMS is airmail parcel service that used to have reasonable prices for small items like cameras and would usually take like 1-2 weeks. Very reasonable. But because of COVID, there is no EMS right now (or anytime in the near future, I think), so sellers will need to ship via DHL or FedEx which are much more expensive.

Just be careful and make sure you look at the photos and read the condition carefully. Most reliable Japanese sellers are good about taking clear photos and being clear on the condition -- but don't assume that just because they are Japanese that the camera will be clean or in perfect working condition.

I used to think the Japanese were better than Americans in making sure they cleaned or took good care of their used cameras. But I've learned that is not always case. Still, if you are careful I wouldn't worry too much about buying from a good seller on eBay from Japan.

BTW - make sure you are comfortable with the customs and other taxes from Japan to Italy. I don't know if there are any issues there.

 

[aizan]

What are your purchasing options in Italy? Are eBay and Jauce options?

Practically anything within your budget is great.

Leica CL
Minolta CLE
Contax G1
Most screwmount cameras
Nikon S cameras
Contax II and IIa
Voigtländer Bessa L, T, and R; maybe R2S and R2C
Canon 7 and P and predecesors

 

[juraj_v]

Thanks a lot for the answer!

It's true, in fact I was looking for Canon cameras because they seemed like a good choice but there aren't many around here.

Both for this and to look for some solution similar to the one you wrote (CLE or Bessa, for example) I was looking at some Japanese seller, but I don't know whether to venture into a purchase from that far away. Anyone have experience shopping on eBay in this regard?

Canons are really great, I'm a big fan of them 🙂 I buy usually from eBay without bigger problems. Japanese sellers in general describe the condition very accurately. I can recommend you a good, trusted seller if you are interested... You must pay the duty and the cameras sometimes needs CLA, but that's quite normal for a 60-70 years old stuff. Last week I bought a Canon L3 and it arrived in 3 days(to Slovakia) with DHL Express.

 

[Merlijn53]

Although imo the CLE is the best camera that Leitz never made, the fact that it is way overpriced nowadays, is not the real problem. The electronics are over 30 years old and will stop working sooner or later. Better look for a fully mechanical camera, or a Bessa.
Regards,
Frank

 

[santino]

The Contax G series is a good idea. Can‘t beat the Zeiss lenses.
I‘d also suggest a Leica CL - it is all mechanical and can be bought quite cheap with a dead meter. Then either get the 40 Summicron or Rokkor. The CLE is really good but nowadays prome to electronic errors.

 

[Doktorkay]

I can answer this -- for Japan you can try to look on eBay, but most CLEs right now, body only, in good working condition will cost you at least $600, and that is before shipping. A cheap price for a very good condition CLE will be around $800 or more.

A good used lens, such as the Rokkor 40mm F2 will likely cost you $350-$450 or more.

Most of the eBay sellers in Japan will ship internationally. Sellers in Japan who only want to sell in Japan usually use different sites. Just double check the eBay posting to make sure they will ship to Italy (which is almost always yes). And if they have a good seller rating, generally most of the time you can rely them to be trustworthy.

The problem right now is that there is no EMS shipping from Japan to most of the world. EMS is airmail parcel service that used to have reasonable prices for small items like cameras and would usually take like 1-2 weeks. Very reasonable. But because of COVID, there is no EMS right now (or anytime in the near future, I think), so sellers will need to ship via DHL or FedEx which are much more expensive.

Just be careful and make sure you look at the photos and read the condition carefully. Most reliable Japanese sellers are good about taking clear photos and being clear on the condition -- but don't assume that just because they are Japanese that the camera will be clean or in perfect working condition.

I used to think the Japanese were better than Americans in making sure they cleaned or took good care of their used cameras. But I've learned that is not always case. Still, if you are careful I wouldn't worry too much about buying from a good seller on eBay from Japan.

BTW - make sure you are comfortable with the customs and other taxes from Japan to Italy. I don't know if there are any issues there.

Thank you very much for your answer, really precious!
I'll do some research on this to see if I can find something really interesting.

 

[Doktorkay]

What are your purchasing options in Italy? Are eBay and Jauce options?

Practically anything within your budget is great.

Leica CL
Minolta CLE
Contax G1
Most screwmount cameras
Nikon S cameras
Contax II and IIa
Voigtländer Bessa L, T, and R; maybe R2S and R2C
Canon 7 and P and predecesors

Thanks a lot!
Some I already knew, others I will try to find and inform myself.
In Italy eBay works very well, while Jauce I don't know, I'll try to find out!

 

[Doktorkay]

Canons are really great, I'm a big fan of them 🙂 I buy usually from eBay without bigger problems. Japanese sellers in general describe the condition very accurately. I can recommend you a good, trusted seller if you are interested... You must pay the duty and the cameras sometimes needs CLA, but that's quite normal for a 60-70 years old stuff. Last week I bought a Canon L3 and it arrived in 3 days(to Slovakia) with DHL Express.

Thanks a lot!
Yes thanks, if you wanted to recommend someone I would be happy.

 

[Doktorkay]

Although imo the CLE is the best camera that Leitz never made, the fact that it is way overpriced nowadays, is not the real problem. The electronics are over 30 years old and will stop working sooner or later. Better look for a fully mechanical camera, or a Bessa.
Regards,
Frank

Thanks for the reply!
My only problem with the Bessa (L and T) is the lack of viewfinders. I'm afraid I'll be uncomfortable or I'll not understand how to use an external viewfinder .. Any advice on this (besides looking for a Bessa R 😉 )?

 

[Doktorkay]

The Contax G series is a good idea. Can‘t beat the Zeiss lenses.
I‘d also suggest a Leica CL - it is all mechanical and can be bought quite cheap with a dead meter. Then either get the 40 Summicron or Rokkor. The CLE is really good but nowadays prome to electronic errors.

Thanks for the reply!
As for the Leica CL, my fear is that, in fact, the electronics will die in a short time or that they are cameras for those who already own a Leica Ms and need a "support", not for those who need a main camera.
What do you think about it?

 

[tbhv55]

I'm looking for a rangefinder but still haven't found the one that's right for me.

I have identified the features I would like it to have and list them below:
- film rangefinder 😀
- interchangeable lenses
- 2 solutions:
completely manual or with some help (e.g. aperture priority or light meter..) but with the ability to shoot manually (if possible, shoot even with no batteries)
- robust, reliable and "compact"
- price under € 600/700 (lens included)

Have you considered the older screw-fit RF cameras? (Note: these would, of course, be fully manual.) It might be worth considering a 'Barnack' Leica (probably between €200 and €400 [body only]), or perhaps the Barnack copies by FED, Zorki, or Canon (probably between €50 and €100). A decent Jupiter 8 lens to get you started would probably be around €40-€50.

Just a thought. 🙂

 

[AlexBG]

Konica Hexar RF would be my choice. Yes it needs batteries and is electronic but they are great cameras. Add a jupiter 50 or indistar lens and it is a great setup probably in your price range. I bought one from Japan a year or so ago and it was in great condition. Never let me down.

Minota CLE is smaller and more expensive and if you are worried about electronics braking in a camera then you need to go full manual camera with a hot shoe mounted light meter. There are loads of electronic hot shoe mounted lightmeters around now, small and very accurate.

 

[keytarjunkie]

Echoing some other comments:

-Nikon S2 or S3, and SC 5cm f/1.4
-Contax IIa (plus a CLA, they always need work), and 50mm Sonnar, or 35mm post war Biogon/Planar. You could start with one of the inexpensive Kiev copies and see how you like it.
-Later Canon LTM cameras
-Bessa R plus a lens
-Yasuhara T981 plus a lens

Watch what comes in at Kamarastore, the Finnish used shop. They often have cameras like these, much closer to home than buying from Japan.

But maybe you shouldn't write off fixed lens RF's. There are tons of options, some of them have great lenses, and the benefit of a simpler construction and more minimal viewfinder. A lot of them have some form of metering and a mechanical shutter. What focal length do you like using? That will tell a lot about what camera you should wind up with anyway.

 

[tbhv55]

Konica Hexar RF would be my choice.

I'd agree that this would be an excellent choice, Alex. They're fairly rare, and I've never handled (or even seen) a Hexar RF. Even so, I wouldn't mind owning one! 🙂 However, they seem to fetch prices well outside the OP's budget. 🙁

 

[Doktorkay]

Have you considered the older screw-fit RF cameras? (Note: these would, of course, be fully manual.) It might be worth considering a 'Barnack' Leica (probably between €200 and €400 [body only]), or perhaps the Barnack copies by FED, Zorki, or Canon (probably between €50 and €100). A decent Jupiter 8 lens to get you started would probably be around €40-€50.

Just a thought. 🙂

Thank you!
Yes, I considered it, I own a Zorki 4 but I was looking for something more "reliable", and I might in fact look for a 'Barnack' Leica, if there is anything coming to Italy 🙂

 

[Doktorkay]

Konica Hexar RF would be my choice. Yes it needs batteries and is electronic but they are great cameras. Add a jupiter 50 or indistar lens and it is a great setup probably in your price range. I bought one from Japan a year or so ago and it was in great condition. Never let me down.

Minota CLE is smaller and more expensive and if you are worried about electronics braking in a camera then you need to go full manual camera with a hot shoe mounted light meter. There are loads of electronic hot shoe mounted lightmeters around now, small and very accurate.

You're right, I'm probably too scared that the electronic part could die, and for this reason I would like to do some order at this point.

I would look for a fully manual camera or one with a built-in light meter, but one that can also work without it.

If I'm not mistaken, I can include in this choice (also selecting with my personal "taste" and what eBay offers in Italy):
- Canon 7
- Canon P
- Leica CL (if it makes sense to have it as your main camera)
- Voigtlander Bessa R / R2
- .. there's more?

Great cameras but out of my budget or "too" electronic:
- Nikon S cameras
- Contax G
- Minolta CLE
- Konica Hexar RF