M Edition 60: the terrorists have not won

Sure, as far as the basic AE, but it's still too "modern" to be retro like the R-D1, i.e., it's bigger (though not as heavy as the 240), has a non-reversible screen, noisy, automatically-cocked Copal shutter, & less sensitive meter. I should have written "digital M7/improved R-D1".

The M9 is in a lot of ways the digital M7.
 
Although there is no question the Edition 60 is a novelty, one point of this is that there is still a contingent that believes that something like it would be functional - or professes to want something like this.
There are individuals who have different needs or preferences.
 
"I would take the digital equivalent of an M6 with b&w film, as I always repeat"

Have you looked at the Epson RD1 series? The only thing it lacks is the low ISO of some films, and that's become rather rare anyway.

I'm in the same boat. And yeah, I have DSLRs for pay-the-bills work, but I always carry a film camera too. I love the idea of the RD1, but it seems like my lab-scans of 35mm have more resolution. I would love an M9. But it would take selling all of my equipment just to get one and a decent compliment of lenses (maybe a slight exaggeration)

As much as I love film (truly, I do) what I really love about film is the camera. Small, thin, unimposing, tough as nails. Thats why my f2s and f3s come with me everywhere. That's why I'm saving for am M6.

I wonder how this edition 60 actually handles. I don't care about hybrid VFs, don't need a jpeg mode (my kingdom for a tablet able to run a full version of lightroom), I like having an LCD when I have it, but honestly not having one makes a camera thinner with one fewer weak-point when getting tossed in a bag... different cameras for different purposes. We've all shot slides with center-weighted metering, we all know it's doable. I think the problem here (or let me put it this way--*my* problem here) is that this is not priced to be a tool. And that in a lot of ways digitals are built as disposable tools rather than heirloom tools, like film cameras. I'd pay a lot of money for a digital M (or Nikon F) platform with no LCD, nothing but a shutter release and a good meter, if it was built to last and had a swappable and maintainable sensor package. But I realize that (1) I am in the minority, and (2) that will never be as marketable, even if there was demand.
 
You're in the magic window where the Monochrom is that camera and it's not $10,000 yet. Just buy a piece of leatherette, stick it on over the LCD (and you don't need a big piece), glue on an ASA dial, add a thumbs-up, and you're golden. If you shoot the equivalent of 400 rolls of film, or 14,400 shots (easy to achieve in a year or two), it pays for itself in what you don't spend on film and processing (or film, chemicals and labor for doing it yourself).

I do not take enough pictures to afford a Monochrom. It simply too much for an amateur with job and family.

Otherwise, I had one because I do not believe there will ever be a camera closer to what I want than this one.
 
I'm in the same boat.

..
And that in a lot of ways digitals are built as disposable tools rather than heirloom tools, like film cameras. I'd pay a lot of money for a digital M (or Nikon F) platform with no LCD, nothing but a shutter release and a good meter, if it was built to last and had a swappable and maintainable sensor package. But I realize that (1) I am in the minority, and (2) that will never be as marketable, even if there was demand.

You are not alone, buddy

Interesting, the discussion about a camera constructed to satisfy only collectors starts the discussion that fascinates me most since I have been on RFF ...
 
"I would take the digital equivalent of an M6 with b&w film, as I always repeat"

Have you looked at the Epson RD1 series? The only thing it lacks is the low ISO of some films, and that's become rather rare anyway.

No, I actually never saw one. But it is not b&w. My M6 is b&w. :angel:

I would be happy to get rid of the scanner, I am happy with everything else.
 
Thanks Dante, as usual well written and thought-provoking.

Having as my "user" a Hexar RF, I agree with what you say about Leica's (and Leica fan's) self-denial of technology - until Leica can/ do it.

I think the M Edition 60 is an interesting sideline. I agree that there will be a mainstream successor to the M 240 and that it will have bells and whistles. I hope (for their sake) they put in a hybrid viewfinder before Fuji completely master the tech to build a true electronic equivalent to the opto-mechanical rangefinder.

Fuji and Leica philosophies couldn't be further apart. As such they really aren't competing for the same photographer. Many photographers, myself included, own both but its not an either/or option.
 
Hi Dante,
Love the way you write but I am curious as to why you chose to essentially review a product that you haven't used.

Hi Kwesi -

It's also possible that it is less a review of the machine than the mentality: people get very hung up on the orthodoxy of tradition vs. stasis vs. progress. Should a digital camera revolve around the platonic form of a film camera, or should it try to be the most useful possible digital camera?

I shoot a lot with the oldest Fuji 6x9s (which have zero electronics) and a lot with an M Typ 240 (and an X-Pro1). I've never wished that the Fujis 6x9s would be more automated nor that the Leica or X-Pro1 would be less. You have to appreciate the possibilities that each provides. A film camera with negative film provides enough latitude to assure you of a good shot; a digital camera usually provides you with an LCD to make sure the shot is within the camera's narrow latitude. But a digital camera with no screen (in addition to being a bit tougher to configure) would seem like a hairshirt made of Kodachrome boxes.

I really, really like the way the Edition 60 looks, but knowing the foibles of digital Leicas is enough to tell me that it would not be fun for very long.

Dante
 
Hi Kwesi -

It's also possible that it is less a review of the machine than the mentality: people get very hung up on the orthodoxy of tradition vs. stasis vs. progress. Should a digital camera revolve around the platonic form of a film camera, or should it try to be the most useful possible digital camera?

I shoot a lot with the oldest Fuji 6x9s (which have zero electronics) and a lot with an M Typ 240 (and an X-Pro1). I've never wished that the Fujis 6x9s would be more automated nor that the Leica or X-Pro1 would be less. You have to appreciate the possibilities that each provides. A film camera with negative film provides enough latitude to assure you of a good shot; a digital camera usually provides you with an LCD to make sure the shot is within the camera's narrow latitude. But a digital camera with no screen (in addition to being a bit tougher to configure) would seem like a hairshirt made of Kodachrome boxes.

I really, really like the way the Edition 60 looks, but knowing the foibles of digital Leicas is enough to tell me that it would not be fun for very long.

Dante


I'll preface my comment by saying I know very little about digital cameras, but I believe I read in more than one place that current sensors have a wider dynamic range than film and slide. From what I see at lectures I've attended, way more information can be retrieved from RAW files than I could ever extract from a negative (my experience here is limited to BW).
 
I'll preface my comment by saying I know very little about digital cameras, but I believe I read in more than one place that current sensors have a wider dynamic range than film and slide. From what I see at lectures I've attended, way more information can be retrieved from RAW files than I could ever extract from a negative (my experience here is limited to BW).

I think want Dante's saying here is that recovering blown shadows from RAW isn't the same thing as dynamic range. Yeah, you can pull the exposure slider around on a RAW editor and get the relevant zone properly exposed, but (and correct me if I'm wrong) something like B&W film will allow for the proper exposure of a greater total number of zones.

Are the Leica CCD's really as narrow, latitude wise, as slide film?
 
You're in the magic window where the Monochrom is that camera and it's not $10,000 yet. Just buy a piece of leatherette, stick it on over the LCD (and you don't need a big piece), glue on an ASA dial, add a thumbs-up, and you're golden. If you shoot the equivalent of 400 rolls of film, or 14,400 shots (easy to achieve in a year or two), it pays for itself in what you don't spend on film and processing (or film, chemicals and labor for doing it yourself).

Although there is no question the Edition 60 is a novelty, one point of this is that there is still a contingent that believes that something like it would be functional - or professes to want something like this.

In addition to the PR aspect, like the fabled "shut up" engagement ring, Leica has given these people what they want. Whether they still want it after it takes concrete form (and a concrete price tag) is a totally different question. Leica will have no difficulty selling this quantity to collectors, but the chances are about zero that it would sell well enough to become a production item.

Dante


Your original article makes sense Dante - at a very basic level I see no possibility of using a digital camera without the ability to review the histogram - even if only to set manual exposure before shooting as you might with a film camera. Highlight overexposure is just too brutal in it's impact.

Agree the Monochrom is equivalent to an M6 with black and white film. Somehow, the irritations in the M9 don't have the same impact in the MM. Don't know why, I just enjoy using it more. It's not as great a tactile pleasure as an MP or Zeiss Ikon, but it delivers, and given my time constraints no needing to develop and scan is a non-trivial gain. None of this to knock film, which I love.

Mike
 
A film camera with negative film provides enough latitude to assure you of a good shot; a digital camera usually provides you with an LCD to make sure the shot is within the camera's narrow latitude.

As we know, E-6 film and digital capture have similar demands with exposure yet many of us have been using E-6 film successfully for decades. Bracketing was often employed when using transparency film, but it wasn't always possible depending on the situation.

e.g, I used only reversal film for a funded documentary project (thanks to the JP Getty Trust and the Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts) and did not have the luxury (events were unfolding too quickly in front of me) to be bracketing, checking exposure, or even looking at an LCD. I had no frames (out of hundreds of rolls) that were not useable. I think one gets to know their materials. And in commercial instances where time and big money are at stake, one did use Polaroid and performed snip tests with the film. There's no denying that the LCD is the equivalent of that, and that having it can be beneficial for sure. But nonetheless we lived without it for a long time and our production was still stellar (look at the history of images before digital.)

I have no horse in this race, but I don't think designing a camera (or any product) that attempts to make it more 'basic' and perhaps more tactile, etc., is always going to be a bad thing. Although in the case of this particular Leica camera it's really about the retail cost, its 'limited production run,' and what the real purpose behind it is all about. To discuss it in that way is interesting and it then becomes more about companies building limited specialty editions as an exercise and for marketing and publicity, etc.. But now you're morphing it into: "people get very hung up on the orthodoxy of tradition vs. stasis vs. progress." That's also interesting but it's a phenomenon not limited only to cameras (or even consumable products.) And using film cameras as an example, the Nikon F4 and the F5 was being built, sold, and used while the FM/FM2 (and also the Leica M6) film cameras were being built, sold, and used. And Contax was building and selling the S2 and S2b after they had introduced the RTS III. Car manufacturers have done the same thing (selling 'stripped down back-to-basic' versions and which have a higher price tag.) This is nothing new.

In your subsequent posts, you seem to be dwelling more the 'missing' LCD aspect of all this. I'm getting a bit perplexed about the article itself and the actual point behind it. Maybe it's more about "the importance of an LCD screen with digital capture."

But to be honest, cut out the fluffy language employed and there's not that much really being said in the article that we don't already understand.
 
Hi Kwesi -

It's also possible that it is less a review of the machine than the mentality: people get very hung up on the orthodoxy of tradition vs. stasis vs. progress. Should a digital camera revolve around the platonic form of a film camera, or should it try to be the most useful possible digital camera?

I shoot a lot with the oldest Fuji 6x9s (which have zero electronics) and a lot with an M Typ 240 (and an X-Pro1). I've never wished that the Fujis 6x9s would be more automated nor that the Leica or X-Pro1 would be less. You have to appreciate the possibilities that each provides. A film camera with negative film provides enough latitude to assure you of a good shot; a digital camera usually provides you with an LCD to make sure the shot is within the camera's narrow latitude. But a digital camera with no screen (in addition to being a bit tougher to configure) would seem like a hairshirt made of Kodachrome boxes.

I really, really like the way the Edition 60 looks, but knowing the foibles of digital Leicas is enough to tell me that it would not be fun for very long.

Dante

Thank you, understood.
If i may play devils advocate. Its also possible that in this case the machine is the mentality. A tool designed to rekindle the trust one had in one's ability to achieve a proper exposure using a film M.
 
...
I really, really like the way the Edition 60 looks, but knowing the foibles of digital Leicas is enough to tell me that it would not be fun for very long.

What foibles are you referring to? I haven't seen any particular foibles using my M9 or X2 in the couple of years I've had them. They work just like my other digital cameras do, only that wee bit better in class.

G
 
What foibles are you referring to? I haven't seen any particular foibles using my M9 or X2 in the couple of years I've had them. They work just like my other digital cameras do, only that wee bit better in class.

G

If my M8 had not had a screen, I never would have come to understand the collimation issue that it had with every Leica lens I owned. And when it locked up (often in conjunction with low Leica batteries that weren't detected by the battery indicator), the only way I could tell it had happened was that the menus were up and the camera was unresponsive.

The M Typ 240 has been a little different; no collimation problems (well, I already had every single lens I owned adjusted…), but its meter tends to resolve every questionable lighting situation in favor of underexposure. You really would have no way of knowing it happened absent a histogram or a preview. And without that warning when you are shooting, where that gets you is a painful amount of post-processing. Not so much bringing up the exposure as adjusting the midtone contrast.

And part of it is that older lenses with focus shift (or even newer ones like the ZM Sonnar) require practice in focusing that is very difficult to do if you can't instantly see where the focus point landed at various apertures and learn by feel how much to turn the focusing ring to compensate. The focus shift issue is far more visible with the digital bodies (whose imaging plane is not quite where it is with film bodies - and many old lenses are off spec anyway). I'm sure this isn't a problem with the bespoke ultramodern lens that comes with the Edition 60, but if this were a production model being mixed and matched with vintage lenses, things could be miserable.

Dante
 
My take was:
1) Leica people are nutty.
2) Digital and Film are different.
3) No one will take pictures with the M 60 ED, and they shouldn't.
4) Leica knows how to press buttons and get attention.

For me the most interesting part of the blog was the discussion of exposure on the 240, for me it describes what I find in the M9, exposure and also WB to some degree vary greatly in different light or sun angle. The primitive Leica meter?
 
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