willie_901
Veteran
My Error
My Error
Then I stand corrected. :bang: Thanks for setting the record straight.
This is a much greater change than I realized. In terms of DC-signal noise levels the Q's data stream out performs the M240/262... except at ISO 200 . And the M240/262 has better analog dynamic range at ISO 200. Something odd is going on with the Q at ISO 200 (??).
Here's a comparison of the two sensors' dynamic range vs ISO.
Here's data for their read noise vs ISO with no light present (a measure of the photo sites' signal-to-noise ratio independent of ISO signal amplification after the shutter closes.
And, noise vs ISO results in raw-file digital numbers (a measure of noise added by ISO signal amplification in between photo sites and the ADC input).
I would rather have the Q sensor if the only consideration for IQ was their data streams' signal-to-noise ratios. Of course, there are other technical factors that influence IQ... mainly the IR filter layer's and color-filter array's characteristics.
Equally important are aesthetic and other subject differences when actually using different camera bodies.
PS These data are from statistical analyses of un-rendered raw file data.
My Error
Then I stand corrected. :bang: Thanks for setting the record straight.
This is a much greater change than I realized. In terms of DC-signal noise levels the Q's data stream out performs the M240/262... except at ISO 200 . And the M240/262 has better analog dynamic range at ISO 200. Something odd is going on with the Q at ISO 200 (??).
Here's a comparison of the two sensors' dynamic range vs ISO.
Here's data for their read noise vs ISO with no light present (a measure of the photo sites' signal-to-noise ratio independent of ISO signal amplification after the shutter closes.
And, noise vs ISO results in raw-file digital numbers (a measure of noise added by ISO signal amplification in between photo sites and the ADC input).
I would rather have the Q sensor if the only consideration for IQ was their data streams' signal-to-noise ratios. Of course, there are other technical factors that influence IQ... mainly the IR filter layer's and color-filter array's characteristics.
Equally important are aesthetic and other subject differences when actually using different camera bodies.
PS These data are from statistical analyses of un-rendered raw file data.
LightBender
Member
It is not going to have the sensor from the Q
uhoh7
Veteran
M10 is going to be a big hit, you watch.
But they are well behind the latest sensors. Genius would be to follow the M10 with "modern" body, new from the ground up with the latest Sony BSI 42 mp, 4K as the "interchangeable" Q. Such a camera could easily have AF for M lenses as well. Techart has already shown this works quite well on the Sonys.
The real Leica secret is that unlike all other Digital camera makers, they put the IR cut in the base coverglass and leave out the sensor stack altogether. Canikon and Sony use clear hard glass in the coverglass and put the IR cut in the stack. RF wides don't like that. But there is nothing stopping anyone from doing exactly the same thing to a Sony BSI sensor and like magic it would shoot all M glass potentially BETTER than M240, since there are newer slimmer IR cuts which get even closer to film in how sharp rays angles are handled.
Of course we all know no way in hell Leica is buying Sony sensors, but maybe a strong kick in the Panasonic butt could result in something similar.
Not just a interchangeable Q but a state of the art field platform for M, smaller and lighter than the SL with all modern options included, even "eye-AF", which is quite a feature if you try it sometime.
Here you can see M/LTM glass AFing great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOgpf09y44M
Now of course, the last thing most M10 buyers want is AF. The optical RF is so sweet. But in the wider market and for working pros this would be huge, and tied to 4k, 42mp great high ISO....Leica would be at the leading edge of the whole industry.
But that would be alot of work
But they are well behind the latest sensors. Genius would be to follow the M10 with "modern" body, new from the ground up with the latest Sony BSI 42 mp, 4K as the "interchangeable" Q. Such a camera could easily have AF for M lenses as well. Techart has already shown this works quite well on the Sonys.
The real Leica secret is that unlike all other Digital camera makers, they put the IR cut in the base coverglass and leave out the sensor stack altogether. Canikon and Sony use clear hard glass in the coverglass and put the IR cut in the stack. RF wides don't like that. But there is nothing stopping anyone from doing exactly the same thing to a Sony BSI sensor and like magic it would shoot all M glass potentially BETTER than M240, since there are newer slimmer IR cuts which get even closer to film in how sharp rays angles are handled.
Of course we all know no way in hell Leica is buying Sony sensors, but maybe a strong kick in the Panasonic butt could result in something similar.
Not just a interchangeable Q but a state of the art field platform for M, smaller and lighter than the SL with all modern options included, even "eye-AF", which is quite a feature if you try it sometime.
Here you can see M/LTM glass AFing great.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOgpf09y44M
Now of course, the last thing most M10 buyers want is AF. The optical RF is so sweet. But in the wider market and for working pros this would be huge, and tied to 4k, 42mp great high ISO....Leica would be at the leading edge of the whole industry.
But that would be alot of work
and you know this how?
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
Well that's what all the rumors say from every source right now so I'm gonna say yes, it will have a slightly altered version of the SL/Q sensor.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
LightBender
Member
I'm going to say no. It will have a different sensor. Besides, the Q/SL sensor was already behind current tech. at the time Leica used it in those cameras.
______
Well-known
And therefore?
LightBender
Member
The M10 will not have the old sensor.
Yes, but Leica doesn't really concern itself with Sony.
pechelman
resu deretsiger
While I can't speak as definitively as Lightbender, there might be a chance that something would be different between Q & M10 sensor, if for no other reason than to compare what happened with the M-D 262 and the M240 sensors, supposedly being slightly different as well since the M-D had no need to support LV or Video.
Either way, I think it's optimistic / foolish for anyone to claim they know what the new camera will or wont have before the actual announcement, unless they happen to have some reliable & verified inside information.
Either way, I think it's optimistic / foolish for anyone to claim they know what the new camera will or wont have before the actual announcement, unless they happen to have some reliable & verified inside information.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
Which is what the rumor sites get. And let's be real, Leica is always behind in sensor tech. AND they won't release a sensor that's better than the SL since that's their "pro" flagship camera.
LightBender
Member
The sensor is not going to be slightly different. The sensor is going to be completely different and that is all I can say and know. The camera is going to be quite refined in the way the Q and SL are. It is going to be more focused as to what a traditional M is.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
ok
10 characters
10 characters
pechelman
resu deretsiger
That's all well and good, and all of us can respect the fact that you cannot say anymore, but you should also realize, that without any reference as to how or why you know this and are so certain in this, it's is also our job to call this information into question. So dont be surprised when someone doesnt blindly accept your statement as fact. That was the original point I was making.
To be clear, I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but without anything else to corroborate your assertion, as they say, "I'll believe it when I see it". You may find this frustrating, but it's just the reality of the situation. I might also add, I am hopeful and optimistic that you are correct.
Thanks for your post
I hope times proves your prediction correct.
That would be great for Leica fans, but even better for Leica in the face of tough competition.
Stephen
Unless the M10 is a CCD and / or CMOSIS has something up its sleeve, it'll be hard to put something so different into the camera I would imagine. Of course, there is this:
http://leicarumors.com/2016/11/07/cmosis-announced-a-new-48mp-full-frame-cmos-sensor.aspx/
While it doesn't appear to be for a Leica... it could an indication that CMOSIS has other items in the pipeline.
http://leicarumors.com/2016/11/07/cmosis-announced-a-new-48mp-full-frame-cmos-sensor.aspx/
While it doesn't appear to be for a Leica... it could an indication that CMOSIS has other items in the pipeline.
brennanphotoguy
Well-known
And most importantly,
I mean, maybe they could shrink it down but I don't think it's destined for any Leica products anytime in the near future.
brennanphotoguy, I do believe I said it wasn't for a Leica... but perhaps you just were frothing at the mouth to discredit the rumor.
I included it more as an indication that the company does have other sensors in the works.
I included it more as an indication that the company does have other sensors in the works.