M3 or M4-P for a newbie?

[dshugar]

Hi group - I've long wanted to get into shooting with a rangefinder but never had the money. Not that I do now (I'm a graduate student), but I just thought 'to hell with it' and bid on a user M3 and won (something like $500 after shipping, exchange etc). I'm super excited to get started, but now I'm wondering if I made the right choice. With my SLR, I shoot almost entirely wide angle (17-40 F4 lens) and I anticipate enjoying the same with my Leica. I realize the shortcomings of the M3 with wide angles and am considering the Voigtlander 28/1.9 with VF or a Summaron (?) 35mm with goggles/eyes. I'm concerned that this may be a little unwieldly.
Anyway, I found an M4-P with Summaron 35mm/2.8, Elmar C 90mm/4 and MR meter for $1500 and I'm wondering if I should sell my M3 (once it arrives, that is!) and buy the M4-P, seeing as how I'll probably spend something on the order of $800 or 900 for a lens and meter...and already I've spent almost as much as the M4-P kit....
Thoughts?
Cheers.

 

[Zenjitsuman]

I have the M4P, I use the leica mr4 meter on the hot shoe, this means to use a vf you need to remove the meter to mount an external vf. Of course on the M4P you have 28mm frames thru 90mm frame.

I like for a beginner a camera that has a built in meter, buy a CV , or Zeiss Ikon.

M6 is the same or more then these cameras and probably in need of a CLA, while these are new with warrantee.

Also, you need to carry an extra meter I do I carry an Sekonic 358 and for landscapes I use a Sekonic spot meter.

You can always run these cameras I recommended manually or use compensation mode. Its just that I think any of the new cameras are easier to load and friendlier to use and less risk being new with a warrantee .

I am happy using mine but sometime I carry my F100 with me just to read the exposure since it has several meter modes, central weighted , spot, matrix metering. This means it takes longer but it works every time.

 

[SolaresLarrave]

They are different cameras, dshugar.

The M3 has a beautiful magnification in the VF. You won't need to think about wide-angle lenses if you manage to secure a collapsible Summicron or a CV Nokton 50mm. The viewfinder has a magnification of 0.92, and has framelines for 90mm and 135mm lenses only.

The M4-P is a more recent camera, still meterless, but with a less glorious viewfinder (only a 0.72 magnification). This way it can accomodate framelines for 28, 35, 50 and 90mm lenses (I don't know if it has the 135 framelines... probably does), but if you think you gain the use of the wide angle, you "lose" the 50mm.

I'd say stick with the M3 if getting the M4-P is going to cause you to go sell stuff and enter into that realm of possibilities. However, if you have a kind of special order at that price... I'd go for it, even at the expense of the M3.

In short... I didn't tell you anything you didn't know, did I?

Sell the M3, get the M4-P right now. Even if it's not a 'cron 35/2, it's still a very nice and natural-looking wide-angle lens with the Summaron.

 

[Broke]

Hi DShugar, welcome to the forum (admittedly from a junior member).

If you'd like to remain within the confines of that 17-40mm range as before, you might look into the Voigtlander Bessa R4 -- has built in framelines down to 21mm I believe. Several members here have good things to say regarding this camera.
It's not a Leica, but offers something no Leica does.

The 28mm framelines on an M are of limited use -- this is especially so if you wear glasses. Accessory finders are cumbersome, but are quite nice in use as they are quite bright and offer a big view.

However, after all that I really love my M6.

Hope that's of any help,

JB

 

[Steve Bellayr]

I "sort of concur" with above. An M6 in bargain shape with a working meter & a CV 35mm lens is a good starter...actually a fantastic starter. With the M3 there are not 35mm framelines nor meter. If you stay with the M3 you should start with the 50mm lens and the Sunny-16 rule or pick up a GE PR-1 meter. They run under $15 and are simple to use. Remember you are shooting quickly on the street. & if you are doing a portrait you will have time enough and film to bracket which is always good even with a meter.

 

[George S.]

My favorite M and the one I have now is the M4-P. It's very nice for a newbie to just put on the lens and shoot, the frames come up automatically in the viewfinder for lenses from 28 to 135mm. I did not want to be bothered with an external viewfinder. I also use other RFs that necessitate the use of one, but the M4-P is nice to not have to use one.

I also believe that with a Leicameter on either camera there will be no room to also use an accessory viewfinder if you need one. On my other Rfs, there IS room to use the Cosina-Voightlander CV MeterII and a viewfinder on a double shoe accessory.

So, what I'm saying is the M3 is out if you want to use the Leicameter and accessory VF. Also, the M4-P will be from the 1980s, and the M3 in all likelihood, from the 1950s. Newer is _usually_ in better shape.

 

[ferider]

If this is the Summaron without eyes, i.e. .7m min focus distance, and
in good condition, it is quite a rare lens and valuable.

If the Summaron has eyes, it is less useful on the M4P, IMO. And,
you could as well just buy a Summaron with eyes and use it with your M3.

Tough choice, I use the 28 Ultron on M3 and external finder and very much
like the combo. The big Ultron and high eye point finder match quite well.
But I use 50mm, too ....

If you really want to go wide maybe forget about the M4P and go for a CV R4* ?
Cheaper and perfect for 28.

Roland.

 

[Todd.Hanz]

in short...get the M3 for 50mm-90mm, the M4-P for 28mm to 75mm.

The 28mm is perfect with the M4-P, full frame if you will.

Good Luck!
Todd

 

[maddoc]

Many helpful comments already given, so from my experience (I own and use both in parallel, M3 and M4-P) both cameras are fine but have their limitations. The M3 is good for 50mm (and longer FL), any wide-angle lens needs an external VF. The M4-P with its 0.72x VF is more universal (28-35-50-75-90-135 frame lines), so usable with WA lenses but not that good for FL > 90mm and 50mm lenses in the f/1.0, f/1.2, f/1.4 range. Additionally, the 28mm frame lines are difficult to see when wearing glasses.

Both cameras need an external meter, are rugged and reeally suitable for daily use (I carry one of them every day with me). The M4-P is easier to load and - as already stated - about 20 years younger, which means the probability, that something will break is lower. Additionally, the M3 VF (albeit the best and brightest) can develop some problems due to age, which are very expensive to repair.

My advice for sombody starting with RF cameras, is either the M4-P (meterless) or the M6 with on-board meter.

Cheers and welcome to the board !

maddoc

 

[Rob-F]

I think that for your needs, the M3 was a misstep. Buying a goggled Summaron will not entirely solve the problem, as then you will still need extra finders for the wider lenses. All this adds up to more $$. The M4P would be a better choice, as it has framelines for the 35mm and 28mm lenses. However, I think the advice given above, to get a Voigtlander camera, is a still better idea. An R4 would be ideal for your wants. And the Cosina-Voiglander lenses are a good buy, asl well. I have the 35mm f/2.5, for instance, and I think very well of it.

So I think I would sell the M3 and get what you really need. BTW, the SUmmaron is currently enjoying popularity, and is not, at this point in time, much of a bargain.

 

[splitimageview]

I will go against the grain and say keep the M3, get the Ultron and a 28/35 mini finder from Voigtlander; its TINY. 😉

This way you can focus much more accurately with that fast f1.9 Ultron, since the M3 has a longer ebl.

And use a gossen digisix incident meter, also tiny. Of course this works with M4P too.

 

[takeda72]

Hi all,

Another newbie says hello.🙂

I started with Lomos, then I used a lot of point and shoots (Olympus Stylus Epic, Yashica T4, Leica Minilux, etc) and finally I bought a DSLR. But last month a Leica/camera dealer here in Buenos Aires agreed to trade my DSLR for a recentily CLAd M3 body. Then I bought a Summicron Collapsible and now I have my first M gear.

I was a little bit worried about not having a meter or not having the 35mm framelimes.

But you know what?

Its true: in the moment of my first shot... well, I fell in love.

So, my answer is: keep the M3.

Regards.

Andre

 

[dshugar]

Hi - thanks for the suggestions, everyone, and also thanks for the welcome to the group. I've been reading the posts for some time and just joined the other day. I guess I've got some thinking to do on this one! I had thought about the Voigtlander R4...quite seriously in fact. It seemed like it would do the trick, but just didn't have that *feel* once in my hands. Now of course, I don't really know what I'm talking about, having only ever picked up 2 or 3 Leicas in my life!
If I decide to sell the M3, is there anyone out there that would be interested? It's got a pretty good dent in one corner but was CLAd in 2006...I can send more details to anyone interested. I would just want to recoup what I spent for it, around $450.

 

[Roger Hicks]

The M3 for the 'Leica experience' (smoothness, quietness, exuding quality); the M4-P for convenience, but my M4-P was the first Leica I ever had new and I was disappointed. Even so, I sold my M3 and now have M2-M4P-MP.

Don't neglect the possibility of a 35mm separate finder...

Cheers,

R.

 

[oscroft]

I had thought about the Voigtlander R4...quite seriously in fact. It seemed like it would do the trick, but just didn't have that *feel* once in my hands.

I know what you mean - I have an R4A and an M6. The R4A is wonderful for w/a shooting (I have a 21 on it nearly all the time), but it doesn't have the feel of the M6 - and the earlier Leicas feel even better. (I find the M6 28mm frame to be fine, but I don't wear glasses and I can see there would be a problem for people who do).

So I pretty much concur with the majority here. If it's a Leica you really want, and you mainly shoot w/a, then an M6 (with a meter) or an M4-P (without) - there doesn't seem to be much difference in the prices. (In fact, I was asking recently about a good 2nd M to go with my M6 and I think I've been convinced that an M4-P would be my best choice, but what I actually get will depend on how much money I have to spend - it might be an M2 at about half the price of an M4-P)

 

[thomasw_]

Most RF users have a couple of "go-to" user bodies with varied viewfinders. Roger and others are sagely in suggesting a VF with 35 framelines, but I think the best all-round Leica body to start with is the M2. You will be able to focus on the classic focal lengths, 35 + 50, and spend time just working with them, seeing more and more of their possibilities. A wise piece of advice I received when I was getting into RFs by my father: learn one or two focal lengths well, stay focussed...ah, the pun🙂 But this advice could apply to your M3 as well: focus on the 5cm FL. That would be the least expensive situation, unless you can return the M3 and get a M2 instead.

By the way you can effectively use the entire .72 VF of a M2 to approximate the 28/25 focal length perimeters....so a M2 might hold you well for a long time. ALso M2s are less in cost than M6s or M4*s.

Good luck with your decision.

thomas

 

[satbunny]

Stay with the M3.
You have it bought.
It's a beautiful camera and you will learn about it and be shaped by it.
Like writing sonnets, limiting your equipment choice can improve your photography.
Then, after 1-2 years, if you want, look at a wide angle RF, and then you might look at a Bessa R4A, which is a wide angle lens specialist.

Don't panic, either the M3 or M4-P will be great.. and you have the M3

 

[roguewave]

One usually doesn't buy an M3 for convenience. There is simply no better 35mm rangefinder on the planet! Since you already have a SLR kit for use with the wider objectives, TAKE THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN SOMETHING NEW. The M3 is the ultimate teacher. Best magnification, softest touch & QUIETEST Leica ever made. Give yourself a chance to see things in a new way & to use your visual skills differently. It WILL change you. I don't know anyone that's had the pleasure of using an M3 over a long period of time that hasn't remained dedicated to the fundamentals that this camera is designed around. Like a mysterious woman, there is nothing like holding this precious zinc, brass & glass in your hands. Let it move & guide you. BTW, the 35 Summaron with goggles is spectacular & weight is not overwhelming, nor the price. The pricier 'cron & all the 35 luxes (my favorative is the last pre-asph) all can be used without an external finder. The bright viewfinder gives you about 80% of the image straight on & if you look left & right you see the limits of the frame. I have purchased the 35 external V finder from Steve Gandy & it looks very cool on my M3. I look through the external finder from time to time, but you ADJUST very easily to mentaly compose even before you shoot. You will REGRET not having a chance to have an affair with this lovely body. You made the right choice. Now do the right thing, step up to the plate & learn how to use it. It will change your life.

 

[dshugar]

Thanks everyone. I sold the M3 the other day and (fingers crossed) am buying the M4P today....

 

[elude]

wise choice 🙂