totifoto
Well-known
I have been saving and selling some of my little used gear to buy my first Leica. After reading alot on the web I have found out that the M4 is gonna be my first. But I have been seeing that the M4-2 goes for a little less. All I have found out is that the M4-2 has no selftimer and thats fine by me, I never use it anyway. But is there any other difference beetween these two?
I´m also thinking alot on what lens I should get for it. It´s gonna be a 50mm but I´ve been thinking if I should get much used "cron", a new or newish voightlander lens or try to find used zeiss.
Frankly I have been stunned by the quality from the zeiss lens but that is only scanned negatives over the internet. I have my own darkroom and want to get the best out my lens in there. Am I missing this "Leica glow" if use something else on my Leica camera?
The whole budget I have now is about 1700$.
Thanx.
I´m also thinking alot on what lens I should get for it. It´s gonna be a 50mm but I´ve been thinking if I should get much used "cron", a new or newish voightlander lens or try to find used zeiss.
Frankly I have been stunned by the quality from the zeiss lens but that is only scanned negatives over the internet. I have my own darkroom and want to get the best out my lens in there. Am I missing this "Leica glow" if use something else on my Leica camera?
The whole budget I have now is about 1700$.
Thanx.
John Elder
Well-known
Check out KEH.They have a "bargain" M4 for 819 and an "excellent" 50mm black summicron
for 616. Well within your budget. Also KEH has a return policy that can't be beat. I have a M4 and an M6 classic and I believe the M4 is the better if not the best Leica M ever made. That includes the M3, one of which I just sold. Get the M4 (not the M4-2)
for 616. Well within your budget. Also KEH has a return policy that can't be beat. I have a M4 and an M6 classic and I believe the M4 is the better if not the best Leica M ever made. That includes the M3, one of which I just sold. Get the M4 (not the M4-2)
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HSI
The Fourth
You could always get the best Leica ever made; the M2.
And find yourself a nice Second version fifty Summicron.
And find yourself a nice Second version fifty Summicron.
thomasw_
Well-known
Hi there,
For 1700, you can get a great lens + body.
The differences between the M4-2 and M4 lies inside and outside the camera: the top-plate was stamped rather than engraved; the rewind knob spinner economised; the engraved metal exposure counter was replaced with a stamped plastic version; stiffer, less rubbery vulcanite was used; steel gears instead of brass; substitution a flat metal disc for the film reminder rather than the mechanical dial used on the M4; and there was simplification of the rangefinder optics by removing a condenser.
But for 1700 USD you can easily afford a nice M4 and a used Leica M 50/2,8 Elmar. A great kit to start a M system. My 2 cents.
For 1700, you can get a great lens + body.
The differences between the M4-2 and M4 lies inside and outside the camera: the top-plate was stamped rather than engraved; the rewind knob spinner economised; the engraved metal exposure counter was replaced with a stamped plastic version; stiffer, less rubbery vulcanite was used; steel gears instead of brass; substitution a flat metal disc for the film reminder rather than the mechanical dial used on the M4; and there was simplification of the rangefinder optics by removing a condenser.
But for 1700 USD you can easily afford a nice M4 and a used Leica M 50/2,8 Elmar. A great kit to start a M system. My 2 cents.
ferider
Veteran
For US 1700 you should be able to get a good M6 and 50/2 Summicron v3.
Great combo.
Roland.
Great combo.
Roland.
rogue_designer
Reciprocity Failure
I have lusted after an M4 for quite some time. But a recently CLA'd M4-2 came up for sale at a great price, and I couldn't pass it up. It's a fantastic camera. If you're buying a camera to use, I'd get an M4-2...use the extra money to get it serviced by a pro (a CLA'd camera makes as big a difference as having brass vs. steel gearing), and to spend on lenses.
Sure, it might be slightly economized from the M4, but mechanically it's every bit the equal of the M's that came after it (excepting the MP). And it's still head and shoulders above just about everything else out there.
Just my $.02
Worry less. Shoot more.
Sure, it might be slightly economized from the M4, but mechanically it's every bit the equal of the M's that came after it (excepting the MP). And it's still head and shoulders above just about everything else out there.
Just my $.02
Worry less. Shoot more.
maddoc
... likes film again.
Just my two cents ... I would get an Leica M4-P because it is newer than the M4-2 and some of the problems the earlier M4-2 had (after production shifted to Canada) were eliminated. The M4 is nice (I had two of them) but older and might probably more in need for a service. A nice 50mm Summicron-M should be available for ~ $600 (and the M4-P for ~ $900), which is well within your budget.
Cheers,
Gabor
Cheers,
Gabor
photo4ls
Well-known
If your heart is not set on the M4 or M4-2 there is a very nice
looking M2 in the classifieds for about $625. None of these M's
mentioned have meters so I think you may like the M2. There are
some real die hard M2 users on this forum. At this price it leaves
enough for CLA and a vgc (very good condition) used Leica lens.
Just something to think about.
looking M2 in the classifieds for about $625. None of these M's
mentioned have meters so I think you may like the M2. There are
some real die hard M2 users on this forum. At this price it leaves
enough for CLA and a vgc (very good condition) used Leica lens.
Just something to think about.
waileong
Well-known
M4-2 feels cheap compared to M4.
As for lens, don't worry about the Leica look until you are an experienced Leica user.
It's like wine, it takes a long time for one to discern vintage wine from regular wine.
As for lens, don't worry about the Leica look until you are an experienced Leica user.
It's like wine, it takes a long time for one to discern vintage wine from regular wine.
calexg
Established
Just in the past week, I bought an M4-2 and a Summicron-M 50/2 from the RFF classifieds for a little less than $1500CAD (~$1150USD). Both are virtually untouched. I'm very excited to start shooting with the pair. I'm also happy both the lens and the body are made in Canada, just like me!
IMO, don't worry about the "budget" factor. Get something that works, and go out and shoot! I believe it's better to spend money on glass than bodies.
YMMV.
IMO, don't worry about the "budget" factor. Get something that works, and go out and shoot! I believe it's better to spend money on glass than bodies.
YMMV.
Tom A
RFF Sponsor
If you are dead set on a M4 - get one. Be prepared to spend some money on it with a CLA. As for a lens as a "starter" - either a Summicron 50f2 would do well or my favorite f2 50mm, the ZM Planar 50mm f2.0. This would keep you well within budget. The M4 tends to be a bit higher priced and subsequently "users" or "beaters" are higher than M4-2/M4-P's. A good user M4P or M4-2 would most likely cost at least $150-$200 less than the M4. The quality of the M4-2/M4-P is by no means inferior to M4's. I have two M4P's, bought new in 1981 and between them they have had 10 000's of rolls through them. One needed a service after 10 years, the other one has not needed it, so far!
The M2 is my favorite and if you are staying with the 35/50 lens sets, you can get a body (M2 around 700) and a ZM Planar 50f2.0 and possibly a VC 35f2.5 and still be within your budget. Good starting kit - and possible all you ever will need. The whole idea of the rangefinder is that it is small and compact and can come along all the time "Don't leave home without it"
The M2 is my favorite and if you are staying with the 35/50 lens sets, you can get a body (M2 around 700) and a ZM Planar 50f2.0 and possibly a VC 35f2.5 and still be within your budget. Good starting kit - and possible all you ever will need. The whole idea of the rangefinder is that it is small and compact and can come along all the time "Don't leave home without it"
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Tom, I think it's high time you got shooting with that 2nd M4-P!! If you don't agree, send it to me.
fbf
Well-known
George S.
How many is enough?
I wouldn't obsess on the differences between the two choices- M4 vs. M4-2. The differences are very small and don't matter to a shooter. The money you may save by choosing the M4-2 matters more, IMO. Go with either, you'll like it either way.
Turtle
Veteran
Seriously? This is the route to missing the point if you ask me.
Buy a Leica, enjoy it. Try some lenses, sell the ones you don't like and keep the one's you do. You don't need to be an experienced Leica anything to know that your eyes tell you and acknowledge what you like. I would recommend to go for a FL you like (I personally am a great fan of 35mm as a flexible single FL) and buy something that is popular and meets your speed/size requirements. Experiment from there if you are not too busy taking pictures that you like just fine as they are!
WoolenMammoth
Well-known
M4's have become my favorite.
we all have our ideas about what the leica look is all about, but for me the V3 summicron takes me directly there, just classic 1970's goodness. You can more than likely find one for under $500. They focus to .7m, have a longer focus throw and for portraits render very delicately, hair blowing in the wind is always the thing I cite for this lens, nothing draws fine straight hair like this lens. Of course there are many other amazing lenses, but for its price its damn hard to beat.
we all have our ideas about what the leica look is all about, but for me the V3 summicron takes me directly there, just classic 1970's goodness. You can more than likely find one for under $500. They focus to .7m, have a longer focus throw and for portraits render very delicately, hair blowing in the wind is always the thing I cite for this lens, nothing draws fine straight hair like this lens. Of course there are many other amazing lenses, but for its price its damn hard to beat.
Erik L
Well-known
what problems?
maddoc
... likes film again.
Some (not all) of the very early M4-2 are reportedly had some problems due to the change of production(-style).
normclarke
normclarke
It is commonly known that the first batch of the M4-2 did have problems but that by now would have been corrected. I have owned both the M4 and M4-2, to a shooter you would be hard put to notice the differences. The frame lines are the same, that is they do not shrink as the M4P started the current trend. I personnaly abhor this shrinkage and is the main reason I sold a very nice M6TTL. It is noticable if you can compare the old v new finders one at each eye the 50mm is way out! The only other thing is that the finishes, black chrome v satin chrome, are a no contest the satin finish is far more durable.
Enjoy,
Cheers,
normclarke.
Enjoy,
Cheers,
normclarke.
maddoc
... likes film again.
But only very very late SN of the M4-P (maybe the one with the flushed windows and zinc top-plate ?) My M4-P (early one) has the frame-line size as my M5 or M2.