M4 vs M4-P (2 versions)

[gilpen123]

If you have a chance to get either the M4 (EX), the M4-P w/ M6 Windows (EX+) and M4-P (EX) chrome 70th anniversary all at KEH condition, what will be your best choice? Price ranges from $990-$1100, consider that you shoot mostly at 35-50 mm (70%) and from time to time (30%) 28 and 90 mm.

The M4-P with M6 windows may be a good choice as it is newer than the 2 but how much difficult will it be to focus and shoot 90? And how is the eye relief on the 28? The 70th anniversary is also a good value considering the chrome is less than the black painted M4-P and what about the M4 retaining a better selling value in the future if you decide to dispose.:bang: Btw, if you already have a CLE for the 28 when you need it.

 

[borismach]

if you dont need the 28mm frameline, M4 is definitely your better choice...but if you need 28mm, then go for M6...

 

[Beemermark]

M4 with no hesitation.

 

[ferider]

M4-P (EX) chrome 70th anniversary. No hesitation 🙂

With the M6 windows comes a smaller 50mm frameline.

 

[drewbarb]

I would not hesitate to go with the M4 over the M4P, for two reasons. First, the original M4 frame lines are more accurate, especially for 50mm (my main focal length). With the M4P and M6, Leitz shrank the frame lines slightly to squeeze in ones for the 28mm lens. Second is the fact that the later finders suffer from worse finder flare, which really bothers me. If you are one of those who doesn't notice or mind finder flare, and you really want the 28mm frame lines, fine. Otherwise, I think the M4 is a better choice.

However- your best bet is to try both cameras and decide which you prefer. Condition, price, and other considerations between specific cameras may trump any other factors, especially the sort of "general rule" recommendations we can give you. Good luck!

Oh- and one other point: if the black M4P is indeed a later one with M6 windows, it is most likely a "black chrome" one with a zinc top, not a black paint with brass top. The easiest way to tell (besides just looking at it and knowing the difference between the two materials and finishes) is to check the windows on the front of the camera. If they are flush, it's a zinc top black chrome camera. If they are recessed, it should be a brass top plate camera. However, to my knowledge, all the later M4P cameras made with the M6 frame lines were the zinc top variety.

 

[ferider]

I would not hesitate to go with the M4 over the M4P, for two reasons. First, the original M4 frame lines are more accurate, especially for 50mm (my main focal length). With the M4P and M6, Leitz shrank the frame lines slightly to squeeze in ones for the 28mm lens.

This is only correct for the late M4P with M6 window. For the majority of M4Ps (with recessed window), the 50mm framelines are identically sized to the M4. Also, recessed window M4Ps have brass top and bottom, while the later M6-style ones are zinc-plated, like the M6.

One thing does speak for the M4 though: RF mis-alignment as a DIY job is simpler and does not require a special tool. But for me, 28mm framelines are important.

Roland.

 

[drewbarb]

This is only correct for the late M4P with M6 window. For the majority of M4Ps (with recessed window), the 50mm framelines are identically sized to the M4. Also, recessed window M4Ps have brass top and bottom, while the later M6-style ones are zinc-plated, like the M6.

One thing does speak for the M4 though: RF mis-alignment as a DIY job is simpler and does not require a special tool. But for me, 28mm framelines are important.

Roland.

Quite. I should have been clearer in my opening sentences, but I was trying to make just this point, as one of the M4P cameras the OP mentions specifically is the later variety with the M6 windows.

Anyway, the point about easier RF adjustment without needing a special tool for the original M4 is a good one, and worth bearing in mind.

 

[HuubL]

In addition to ultimate factory hand-tuning, with the original M4 you get a self timer.

 

[gilpen123]

Thanks for all the insights! Yes I want to avoid VF flare as much as possible and I also love 50 but 40 is my preferred FL vs 35/50. That means the M4-P w/ M6 windows will be the same issue with the M6 VF. So I think my choice now will be either the M4-P 70 anniversary or the M4. I can use my 40 summicron-c with either as well and I have no problem guesstimating the frame. A 28 and a 40 combi will be an absolute travel kit for me. I guess I'm leaning towards the M4-P 70 anniv more.

 

[fbf]

m4p 70 anniversay for sure.
I wish they make 0.58, .85, .92 m4ps and I would buy them ALL

 

[gilpen123]

In addition to ultimate factory hand-tuning, with the original M4 you get a self timer.

Self timer is not important to me. Framelines and eye relief will be the deal breaker.

 

[35mmdelux]

For eye relief with moderate wides .58 rocks -

 

[ItsReallyDarren]

If eye relief if important try looking for the later M4 with the rounded viewfinder eyepiece. I believe all M4P's have it and later M4's.

 

[gilpen123]

For eye relief with moderate wides .58 rocks -

I would love to but then it kills the 90. I guess the best compromise is 0.72 which can be manageable on both ends or maybe a 0.85 and just use the CLE for 28s which IMO is one of the best 28 framelines minus the 0.58.

 

[maddoc]

I would go for the M4-P chrome (70th anniversary) for sure. Old style 50mm frame-lines, brass-top, rapidwinder / motor-coupling, prism / frameline-masks that do not delaminate or separate, more rugged gears.

The M4 is nice to handle but the shutter-curtains are a weak point and the VF can show ghost images at night (I had two M4, one M2 and all had that problem). The VF of the M4-P is more prone to flare, though but that problem can be overcome by slightly tilting the camera or shifting the eye-position.

 

[gilpen123]

Oh f*@#k it's gone. The 70 anniv M4-P has been sitting at KEH for some time until yesterday EX $1K now gone. Just when I'm ready....

 

[coelacanth]

I think you gotta be careful bringing up a topic like this to RFF. 😀 The discussion pushes someone over the edge, and KEH sells the item that's been discussed. There was a Summaron 35/3.5 discussion here a bit ago, and when I thought I was ready after seeing many great shots on the thread, the EX Summaron was gone from KEH. 😛

 

[HuubL]

Oh f*@#k it's gone. The 70 anniv M4-P has been sitting at KEH for some time until yesterday EX $1K now gone. Just when I'm ready....

Sorry for you. It must be all the talking here that put somebody else on the track of the M4-P.
@Maddoc, I find the flaring M6 viewfinder a major nuisance that the M4 doesn't have. If the M4-P's flaring finder is the same as in the M6, I would definitely prefer a late M4. No problems with ghosting in night shots (but I don't do this much) and the rangefinder prisms are glued with the new non-separating glue.

 

[gilpen123]

I think you gotta be careful bringing up a topic like this to RFF. 😀 The discussion pushes someone over the edge, and KEH sales the item that's been discussed. There was a Summaron 35/3.5 discussion here a bit ago, and when I thought I was ready after seeing many great shots on the thread, the EX Summaron was gone from KEH. 😛

Well last time I heard from KEH the VF is terribly misaligned and the shutter curtain has some leak as well as fungus and haze all over the VF hehehe 😀

 

[ItsReallyDarren]

I would go for the M4-P chrome (70th anniversary) for sure. Old style 50mm frame-lines, brass-top, rapidwinder / motor-coupling, prism / frameline-masks that do not delaminate or separate, more rugged gears.

The M4 is nice to handle but the shutter-curtains are a weak point and the VF can show ghost images at night (I had two M4, one M2 and all had that problem). The VF of the M4-P is more prone to flare, though but that problem can be overcome by slightly tilting the camera or shifting the eye-position.

I haven't heard much about the differences between M4 and M4P shutters. Is this a design issue or an age related wear issue?