Ronald M
Veteran
I would suggest you rent or borrow to see if a RF camera is for you.
A used camera is like a used car, it may or may not need immediate maintenance, but rest assured it will eventually. As someone who has never used one, you are not likely to detect something wrong. A longish warrantee would be in order.
Zeiss cameras are not known for being robust. It is made by a company in Japan that builds the non professional big name cameras and they are built to non professional standards.
Not to discourage you , but to inform you so you know what you are getting into. They can be additional costs in the future.
M6 cameras have depreciated and your resale value should be closer to what you pay . Zeiss MAY depreciate a lot percentage wise and dollar wise.
Parts for Leicas are around and so will be donor cameras if necessary and so will parts be made by enterprising repair people. Zeiss, who knows.
Leicas
A used camera is like a used car, it may or may not need immediate maintenance, but rest assured it will eventually. As someone who has never used one, you are not likely to detect something wrong. A longish warrantee would be in order.
Zeiss cameras are not known for being robust. It is made by a company in Japan that builds the non professional big name cameras and they are built to non professional standards.
Not to discourage you , but to inform you so you know what you are getting into. They can be additional costs in the future.
M6 cameras have depreciated and your resale value should be closer to what you pay . Zeiss MAY depreciate a lot percentage wise and dollar wise.
Parts for Leicas are around and so will be donor cameras if necessary and so will parts be made by enterprising repair people. Zeiss, who knows.
Leicas
dshfoto
Well-known
If you have not done so, you might like to read erwin puts comments on choosing an M:
http://www.imx.nl/photo/Analysis/Analysis/Analysis/page80.html
Many people adivse, "put the money in the glass." That is, get the best lenses you can for the type of photography that you plan on. It might even be advisable to rent a lens and try it out. An M3 will take great photos, without a built in meter.
As to the lens, it is a matter of philosophy and personal preference. A number of street shooters have favored a 28mm lens. While others like a 50mm. 35mm summilux or summicron is a good all round lens. And is wide enough if you want to pick up a used M8 later.
http://www.imx.nl/photo/Analysis/Analysis/Analysis/page80.html
Many people adivse, "put the money in the glass." That is, get the best lenses you can for the type of photography that you plan on. It might even be advisable to rent a lens and try it out. An M3 will take great photos, without a built in meter.
As to the lens, it is a matter of philosophy and personal preference. A number of street shooters have favored a 28mm lens. While others like a 50mm. 35mm summilux or summicron is a good all round lens. And is wide enough if you want to pick up a used M8 later.
brokencivilian
Established
Thanks you!
And I just graduated from a creative photography program.
Loved it.. But its too digital. Getting myself more into film everyday.
rogerzilla
Well-known
I love Erwin's droll sense of humour on the M1
roboflick
Well-known
Ttl is better especially if you haven't had an m yet. M6 is better only if you are conditioned to the shutter dial on an earlier m.
M6 ttl were produced between 10 12 years ago and were very little use. Most were probably immediately sold for m7 or never used. The shutter dial can be moved without removing your eyes from the eyepiece. The m6 will slow you down if you plan on using it for street photography. The m6 ttl won't need a cla either
Nik
doolittle
Well-known
Definitely consider a 50mm lens to begin with, goes great with the M6!
Steve Bellayr
Veteran
Between the M6 Classic and the M6 TTL there isn't much difference. What is important is the condition of the camera. A 35mm f2.0 whether it is the v.3 or v.4 will be expensive but rewarding. Next to that is the 50mm Summicron. Whichever Summicron you pick you will not be disappointed. Most modern (probably all) Leica lenses are outstanding. And, paired with an M6 will be outstanding. In essence, what I am saying, is that it is hard to go wrong with a Leica and a Leica lens.
BobYIL
Well-known
M6 ttl were produced between 10 12 years ago and were very little use. Most were probably immediately sold for m7 or never used. The shutter dial can be moved without removing your eyes from the eyepiece. The m6 will slow you down if you plan on using it for street photography. The m6 ttl won't need a cla either
Nik[/quote]
*********************************
Let me clarify two points here as I have both the M6 classic and the TTL.. but also three M2s and five M3s and an M4... using Leicas since 1963.
Concerning reliability: All three M2s and two M3s have the "L" seals still intact, shutter speeds within 30% of the nominals when I check except one M2 needs CLA, after some half a century the lower shutter speeds started to "stretch".
Concerning speed of use in street photography: IMO, there is no M model being known as faster than the other in any respect once the film is loaded. And I presume the OP would not be on assignments frequently to cover events thru a dozen rolls a day to concern about time to be wasted for rewinding and reloading even he opts for an old model like the M2 or M3. And all models after the M3 are the same in this regard with faster loading and rewinding features.
This might explain one of the reasons why some of us are reluctant to sell their old M models to switch to rather new ones. And frankly, if I would be selling any of my Leicas today, then the two M6s would be the first ones to go as they have almost no use since the day they were bought..
The OP hinted an emphasize on the 28 and 35mm lenses. Any .58 M6 would fit to his wish and I hope that he would not complain about the relatively smaller frames of the 50 and other tele lenses when he starts using them too. If I were in his shoes I would rather go to the dealers recommended by some members here, buy a mint M6 with some months of warranty, put an 2.8 or 2.0 Biogon 35 on it and start concentrating on improving my technique. And later (as he's too young) if he thinks to upgrade or sell it, I do not believe he would lose more than 15% of his money.
Bob
Nik[/quote]
*********************************
Let me clarify two points here as I have both the M6 classic and the TTL.. but also three M2s and five M3s and an M4... using Leicas since 1963.
Concerning reliability: All three M2s and two M3s have the "L" seals still intact, shutter speeds within 30% of the nominals when I check except one M2 needs CLA, after some half a century the lower shutter speeds started to "stretch".
Concerning speed of use in street photography: IMO, there is no M model being known as faster than the other in any respect once the film is loaded. And I presume the OP would not be on assignments frequently to cover events thru a dozen rolls a day to concern about time to be wasted for rewinding and reloading even he opts for an old model like the M2 or M3. And all models after the M3 are the same in this regard with faster loading and rewinding features.
This might explain one of the reasons why some of us are reluctant to sell their old M models to switch to rather new ones. And frankly, if I would be selling any of my Leicas today, then the two M6s would be the first ones to go as they have almost no use since the day they were bought..
The OP hinted an emphasize on the 28 and 35mm lenses. Any .58 M6 would fit to his wish and I hope that he would not complain about the relatively smaller frames of the 50 and other tele lenses when he starts using them too. If I were in his shoes I would rather go to the dealers recommended by some members here, buy a mint M6 with some months of warranty, put an 2.8 or 2.0 Biogon 35 on it and start concentrating on improving my technique. And later (as he's too young) if he thinks to upgrade or sell it, I do not believe he would lose more than 15% of his money.
Bob
efirmage
Established
If you're interested in 28mm I would highly recommend the Zeiss 2.8 28mm Biogon. I accidentally purchased this instead of the 35 Biogon and ended up keeping it because I enjoyed it so much.
It is an absolutely fantastic lens, almost no distortion, excellent sharpness. I use it in conjunction with a faster 50mm lens and it's quite an ideal setup for almost any kind of photography.
It is an absolutely fantastic lens, almost no distortion, excellent sharpness. I use it in conjunction with a faster 50mm lens and it's quite an ideal setup for almost any kind of photography.
inSIGHT
Member
Unfortunately there are no authorized leica dealers in south carolina so it looks like I will have to travel to Raleigh. I messaged the folks at Peace Camera and SouthEastern Camera Supply. Has anyone on here done business with them before?
Thanks,
Brett
Thanks,
Brett
inSIGHT
Member
I guess what I meant to say is I used Leica's dealer database to find something nearby. I don't know where any other dealer's are that would be closer and sell used Leica equipment. And I would like to hopefully go to a dealer in person and talk to them. I looked at KEH and they seemed to be higher priced than any other dealer that has an online store front.
Archiver
Veteran
I think it is important to hold and play with both cameras if possible before making a decision. Both cameras have a lot in favour of one over the other, but ultimately it will come to three things: how you emotionally feel about the camera, how the camera suits you/how you can adapt to the camera, and how robust the camera is for you over time.
I have the Zeiss Ikon and the M7. The Ikon is much lighter and a bit slimmer, making it easier to hold and carry for long periods of time. As others have said, the large viewfinder is great and is a big leap ahead of the M7's viewfinder, although the rangefinder patch disappears if you're not looking through it dead-centre. The back opens as a modern camera does, and loading film is almost instant when you've got the hang of it.
Although the M7 is heavier, the overall build quality feels a lot better, with finer tolerances and greater structural strength. The Ikon actually flexes at the back if you squeeze the top plate downwards, which is a bit disconcerting. The shutter of the M7 is much more quiet and unobtrusive, but will also be prone to burning, whereas the more obtrusive Ikon's metal shutter will never burn in sunlight.
Emotionally, I love my M7. It feels great in my hand, beautifully balanced and solid. Despite the Ikon being a more technologically advanced camera, lighter and easier to carry, the M7 is the one I tend to take out.
As for lenses: I would recommend either the ZM 28/2.8 Biogon, or the CV 35/1.4 Nokton. I have both, and they are just great lenses. Build quality is high in both of them, and although the Zeiss has developed a slightly loose inner column, the picture quality is still stellar and it handles better than a lot of Leica lenses I also have. The design of the focus ring makes it much easier to fine tune than the Leica lenses with only a finger tab and no grooves, and the same goes for all other Zeiss lenses.
I have the Zeiss Ikon and the M7. The Ikon is much lighter and a bit slimmer, making it easier to hold and carry for long periods of time. As others have said, the large viewfinder is great and is a big leap ahead of the M7's viewfinder, although the rangefinder patch disappears if you're not looking through it dead-centre. The back opens as a modern camera does, and loading film is almost instant when you've got the hang of it.
Although the M7 is heavier, the overall build quality feels a lot better, with finer tolerances and greater structural strength. The Ikon actually flexes at the back if you squeeze the top plate downwards, which is a bit disconcerting. The shutter of the M7 is much more quiet and unobtrusive, but will also be prone to burning, whereas the more obtrusive Ikon's metal shutter will never burn in sunlight.
Emotionally, I love my M7. It feels great in my hand, beautifully balanced and solid. Despite the Ikon being a more technologically advanced camera, lighter and easier to carry, the M7 is the one I tend to take out.
As for lenses: I would recommend either the ZM 28/2.8 Biogon, or the CV 35/1.4 Nokton. I have both, and they are just great lenses. Build quality is high in both of them, and although the Zeiss has developed a slightly loose inner column, the picture quality is still stellar and it handles better than a lot of Leica lenses I also have. The design of the focus ring makes it much easier to fine tune than the Leica lenses with only a finger tab and no grooves, and the same goes for all other Zeiss lenses.
David Hughes
David Hughes
Hi,
You've an Olympus 35RC: have you read what Ken Rockwell says about it (and the M7)? You'll find it here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/olympus/35rc.htm
The 35RC is, as you know, a CRF camera. Have you looked at its spec'n in full and compared it to the M6 etc? It would be a useful exercise.
Regards, David
You've an Olympus 35RC: have you read what Ken Rockwell says about it (and the M7)? You'll find it here:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/olympus/35rc.htm
The 35RC is, as you know, a CRF camera. Have you looked at its spec'n in full and compared it to the M6 etc? It would be a useful exercise.
Regards, David
roboflick
Well-known
*********************************
Let me clarify two points here as I have both the M6 classic and the TTL.. but also three M2s and five M3s and an M4... using Leicas since 1963.
Concerning reliability: All three M2s and two M3s have the "L" seals still intact, shutter speeds within 30% of the nominals when I check except one M2 needs CLA, after some half a century the lower shutter speeds started to "stretch".
Concerning speed of use in street photography: IMO, there is no M model being known as faster than the other in any respect once the film is loaded. And I presume the OP would not be on assignments frequently to cover events thru a dozen rolls a day to concern about time to be wasted for rewinding and reloading even he opts for an old model like the M2 or M3. And all models after the M3 are the same in this regard with faster loading and rewinding features.
This might explain one of the reasons why some of us are reluctant to sell their old M models to switch to rather new ones. And frankly, if I would be selling any of my Leicas today, then the two M6s would be the first ones to go as they have almost no use since the day they were bought..
The OP hinted an emphasize on the 28 and 35mm lenses. Any .58 M6 would fit to his wish and I hope that he would not complain about the relatively smaller frames of the 50 and other tele lenses when he starts using them too. If I were in his shoes I would rather go to the dealers recommended by some members here, buy a mint M6 with some months of warranty, put an 2.8 or 2.0 Biogon 35 on it and start concentrating on improving my technique. And later (as he's too young) if he thinks to upgrade or sell it, I do not believe he would lose more than 15% of his money.
Bob[/quote]
Bob
I respect your experience, but please explain to me how transferring exposure values from a handheld or shoe mount meter on an m3 is faster than the built in meter on an m6ttl, in changing lighting conditions? I have both an m3 with a vcmeter in the hotshoe and an m6, and the m6 is much faster to use than an m3 in my hands. The m6 ttl larger shutter speed dial and travel allows me to set the exposure without taking my eye from the viewfinder.
Thanks for your discussion,
Nik
roboflick
Well-known
You pay more for KEH because you have a 15 day no questions asked return policy and a 6 month warranty. I would highly recommend them. If you had a problem (shutter speeds off they will fix it in their shop, no need to pay for a cla, which can be expensive if done right) I recently bought a Like new m6ttl from them that worked perfectly. It is currently with DAG getting the flare free viewfinder and m3 style advance lever.
Nik
Joeys61
Joey
Camerawest.com and Tamarkin.com
Both are highly regarded and the ratings are very conservative. I've bought from them and wouldn't hesitate recommending either one and extremely helpful.
Both are highly regarded and the ratings are very conservative. I've bought from them and wouldn't hesitate recommending either one and extremely helpful.
cosmonaut
Well-known
When I bought my M6 I got the best deal at Adorama. I have always thought KEH was a bit to high. But your best deal will come from the classifieds here. I have an M6 and love it. But I also have a M3 and don't mind using a meter. You get use to carrying one around.
BobYIL
Well-known
roboflick wrote: Bob
I respect your experience, but please explain to me how transferring exposure values from a handheld or shoe mount meter on an m3 is faster than the built in meter on an m6ttl, in changing lighting conditions? I have both an m3 with a vcmeter in the hotshoe and an m6, and the m6 is much faster to use than an m3 in my hands. The m6 ttl larger shutter speed dial and travel allows me to set the exposure without taking my eye from the viewfinder.
Thanks for your discussion,
Nik
**********************************
First, I do not use exposure meter. A lot of Leica users do not need to measure light each time before they press the shutter even with the models having built-in meter. Especially for street photography, your focus (most of the time zone focus) aperture and shutter need to be set prior to raising the camera to your eye...
Further taking into consideration of the OP being a new starter I did not recommend him anything other than the M6.
Frankly, for experienced users I do not think any M model would have superiority for being faster compared to the other one. If the opposite were true be sure that they all would be tearing themselves to switch to the M6 or other models having lightmeters built-in.
BTW, you wrote " The m6 will slow you down if you plan on using it for street photography."... . Let the M6 owners not hear this..
Bob
I respect your experience, but please explain to me how transferring exposure values from a handheld or shoe mount meter on an m3 is faster than the built in meter on an m6ttl, in changing lighting conditions? I have both an m3 with a vcmeter in the hotshoe and an m6, and the m6 is much faster to use than an m3 in my hands. The m6 ttl larger shutter speed dial and travel allows me to set the exposure without taking my eye from the viewfinder.
Thanks for your discussion,
Nik
**********************************
First, I do not use exposure meter. A lot of Leica users do not need to measure light each time before they press the shutter even with the models having built-in meter. Especially for street photography, your focus (most of the time zone focus) aperture and shutter need to be set prior to raising the camera to your eye...
Further taking into consideration of the OP being a new starter I did not recommend him anything other than the M6.
Frankly, for experienced users I do not think any M model would have superiority for being faster compared to the other one. If the opposite were true be sure that they all would be tearing themselves to switch to the M6 or other models having lightmeters built-in.
BTW, you wrote " The m6 will slow you down if you plan on using it for street photography."... . Let the M6 owners not hear this..
Bob
roboflick
Well-known
Bobroboflick wrote: Bob
I respect your experience, but please explain to me how transferring exposure values from a handheld or shoe mount meter on an m3 is faster than the built in meter on an m6ttl, in changing lighting conditions? I have both an m3 with a vcmeter in the hotshoe and an m6, and the m6 is much faster to use than an m3 in my hands. The m6 ttl larger shutter speed dial and travel allows me to set the exposure without taking my eye from the viewfinder.
Thanks for your discussion,
Nik
**********************************
First, I do not use exposure meter. A lot of Leica users do not need to measure light each time before they press the shutter even with the models having built-in meter. Especially for street photography, your focus (most of the time zone focus) aperture and shutter need to be set prior to raising the camera to your eye...
Further taking into consideration of the OP being a new starter I did not recommend him anything other than the M6.
Frankly, for experienced users I do not think any M model would have superiority for being faster compared to the other one. If the opposite were true be sure that they all would be tearing themselves to switch to the M6 or other models having lightmeters built-in.
BTW, you wrote " The m6 will slow you down if you plan on using it for street photography."... . Let the M6 owners not hear this..
Bob
That's what I thought thanks for clarifying that
Hopefully I will get to the point where I can trust sunny 16 and my own eye. But for now I find the light meter to be helpful especially as I shoot primarily slide film
Thanks
Nik
Wcarpenter
Established
I'm similar in age (rising junior) and got a Wetzlar M6 this past summer. I really can't recommend the camera enough. It's an absolute joy to shoot with. I use mine with a 35mm Summarit lens. I've had great luck with the Summarit, and would also recommend it. Its quite tiny and makes great images. You can't go wrong either way. Congrats on graduating and good luck finding a camera!