M6 shutter sounds and fingerprint inside lens

[PrexaDotCom]

Dear Rangerfinder users:

I recently bought a Leica M6 with 35mm Summicron-M (Canada), which arrived yesterday, and I have a 14 day return privilege. I need a bit of long-distance help evaluating the equipment before deciding to keep it or not. I have used numerous mechanical cameras before, although my Leica experience is limited to an M7 I had use of for a bit less than a week last fall. I have checked the camera according to the recommendations on http://www.cameraquest.com/leicamchecklist.htm , and the body seems fine... I will be putting a roll of film through it today to test for shutter speed accuracy, frame spacing, scratching the film, light leaks, focus, etc, but have a few questions for those who are familiar with the M6 (not TTL), as well as with things that can go wrong with the lenses. The body serial number dates it to 1992, the lens is from 1984.

1. On 1 sec the shutter timer sound is regular and steady while the shutter is open, but rises in pitch slightly after the second curtain closes. Is this normal or a sign of problems?

2. The shutter timer continues to make its sound for a little bit after the shutter closes on speeds from 1/8 to 1 sec. Is this normal?

3. On 1/15 and 1/30 (and only on those speeds) after the shutter closes there is a brief rhythmic sound that gets faster and faster, like the way a billiard ball does if it bounces on a hard surface just before coming to rest (but the shutter sound is obviously not as loud or sharp as a bouncing billiard ball.) It sounds like some part of the timing mechanism bouncing rhythmically against something else 4 or 5 times as it comes to rest. Is this normal?

4. 1/500 and 1/1000 sound essentially the same to me, but with my Nikon FM I can tell a difference between those two speeds (but the Nikon has mirror and diaphragm noise, too, and perhaps I'm hearing a difference in that. Anyway, on SLRs from 1/1000 on up the speeds all sound the same to me.) Should there be an obvious difference between 1/500 and 1/1000 on the M6 or is it very slight, perhaps too slight for me to perceive? Once I get my film back I should be able to tell if the speeds are off by much.

5. I'm a bit puzzled why they graded the body so low... other than some slight strap rubbing and wear on surface edges and a few nicks it looks nice to me for a camera of its age, and seems to work fine. The rewind knob and the shutter button surround seem to be of a slightly different finish, but perhaps they're made of a different metal? I'm a user, not a collector, so my standards are probably different, but it makes me wonder if there is something with the body I'm not seeing.

6. As for the lens, it seems fine *except* there is what appears to be a partial fingerprint on an *inside* element near the rear... it could be on the inside surface of the rear element. I'm not sure if it's a fingerprint or not, but it is about 5 ridge-lines, spaced about like the swirls on a fingerprint, each about 2 or 3 mm long. They are about half way between the center of the element and the edge. If it is indeed a fingerprint I'm concerned that A) it will affect image quality, and B) it points to sloppy repair of the lens at some point, which could mean it might have other problems, too... I would think that a good repair tech would not have put the print there in the first place, or if they had they would have seen it after finishing, and opened the lens up again and cleaned it off. I think as soon as I have finished using the lens to test the body I need to send the lens back and find a different one.

I welcome experienced and knowledgeable advice on the body and lens issues described above and thank you all in advance for your polite help.

 

[Ken Ford]

The body sounds fine, and I agree the lens needs to go back.

 

[colyn]

The sounds you are hearing on the slow speeds are normal. The slow speed escapement mechanism is simply returning to its original position.. As for the 1/500th and 1/1000th sounding the same...the difference between the 2 speeds is the width of the slit. Therefore they will sound the same..

Sounds like the lens may have been taken apart at some time by some inexperienced wannabe. I would return it..

 

[JNewell]

1. On 1 sec the shutter timer sound is regular and steady while the shutter is open, but rises in pitch slightly after the second curtain closes. Is this normal or a sign of problems?

I think they usually drop in pitch after the second curtain closes, but that sounds normal.

2. The shutter timer continues to make its sound for a little bit after the shutter closes on speeds from 1/8 to 1 sec. Is this normal?

Totally.

3. On 1/15 and 1/30 (and only on those speeds) after the shutter closes there is a brief rhythmic sound that gets faster and faster, like the way a billiard ball does if it bounces on a hard surface just before coming to rest (but the shutter sound is obviously not as loud or sharp as a bouncing billiard ball.) It sounds like some part of the timing mechanism bouncing rhythmically against something else 4 or 5 times as it comes to rest. Is this normal?.

Yes, you should hear that noise. The only M shutter I have ever heard that doesn't make it is an M5, and I was told by DAG that that was normal/expected for the M5 shutter.

4. 1/500 and 1/1000 sound essentially the same to me, but with my Nikon FM I can tell a difference between those two speeds (but the Nikon has mirror and diaphragm noise, too, and perhaps I'm hearing a difference in that. Anyway, on SLRs from 1/1000 on up the speeds all sound the same to me.) Should there be an obvious difference between 1/500 and 1/1000 on the M6 or is it very slight, perhaps too slight for me to perceive? Once I get my film back I should be able to tell if the speeds are off by much.

I have never been able to hear a difference between 1/500 and 1/1000 on an M shutter.

5. I'm a bit puzzled why they graded the body so low... other than some slight strap rubbing and wear on surface edges and a few nicks it looks nice to me for a camera of its age, and seems to work fine. The rewind knob and the shutter button surround seem to be of a slightly different finish, but perhaps they're made of a different metal? I'm a user, not a collector, so my standards are probably different, but it makes me wonder if there is something with the body I'm not seeing.

First, can you tell us who you bought the camera from? Two points. Some sellers start the 14-day clock from the DATE OF THE INVOICE - make sure you understand when the 14-day period ends. Second, if the dealer was KEH, they are known for conservative grading. What was the camera's advertised condition?

The rewind knob and shutter pieces are anodized aluminum. The top plate is a copper-plated zinc casting with black chrome finish, and it will look somewhat different even fresh from the factory.

You're probably not missing anything...enjoy! Agree with the others on the lens...

 

[PrexaDotCom]

The camera was indeed bought from KEH since from all the dealers who list inventory on-line they seemed to have what I wanted in the price range / condition I was looking for (I prefer to not have to worry about maintaining --or paying for-- perfect cosmetic condition of the cameras I use, so I look for ones that already show some wear, as long as it's not damage.) So the return period is 14 days from invoice and condition for both pieces was "bargain."

First, can you tell us who you bought the camera from? Two points. Some sellers start the 14-day clock from the DATE OF THE INVOICE - make sure you understand when the 14-day period ends. Second, if the dealer was KEH, they are known for conservative grading. What was the camera's advertised condition?

 

[Ken Ford]

KEH BGN grade is usually better than expected!

 

[Ash]

MY M2 has the same thing with the shutter sounds. It is also very similar to a IIIc I owned. I also feared the 1/500 and 1/1000 thing until I processed my test roll.

No idea about the lens though. good luck!!

 

[PrexaDotCom]

Conclusion: The test roll showed the body to be fine and I am keeping it; the lens has been sent back. On further examination, and comparing it to pictures of lenses of the same generation, I noticed that the focussing tab was a lot smaller (shorter) than normal. I also seemed to be of a slightly larger radius than the fucussing ring itself and thus didn't sit flush with the surface of the focussing ring at the edges, and seemed to have had a somewhat sloppy glue job applied to help hold it on. Being so short make it hard to work the focus without also sometimes accidently turning the aperture ring, a problem I didn't have with the camera I had borrowed in the fall, which had the correct focussing tab.

Thanks to all who replied for their help and advice.