Again, this is not a political discussion no matter how sensible your comments may be.
And to your point Ben, I did pick up a copy of the book of General Patton's photos from his tour across Northern Africa and into Europe in WWII. He apparently sent rolls and rolls of film and images home to his wife in letters with commentary on some.
And to your point Ben, I did pick up a copy of the book of General Patton's photos from his tour across Northern Africa and into Europe in WWII. He apparently sent rolls and rolls of film and images home to his wife in letters with commentary on some.
dcsang
Canadian & Not A Dentist
Yet another thread that's slowly becoming "M8 vs . . . . " and I have yet to take a look at the images from this soldiers cams.
Well.. I guess if the photos are that good.. perhaps this thread should be canned and re-started as has been suggested - Leica in Iraq - covering the war from a soldier's point of view.
Cheers
Dave
Well.. I guess if the photos are that good.. perhaps this thread should be canned and re-started as has been suggested - Leica in Iraq - covering the war from a soldier's point of view.
Cheers
Dave
Not lost yet Dave and getting better (fingers crossed).
rsl
Russell
Maybe I'm missing something but it seems to me that for the most part there are three kinds of people on these threads:
(1) The M8 owner who's satisfied with the camera -- even loves it, Ted for instance.
(2) The M8 owner who's had problems and is either looking for help or who's decided he's made a mistake and is dropping the M8.
(3) People who would like to own the M8 but are waiting to see what's going to happen to it before they commit. I'm one of those, and from what I've seen so far, Ben Z is another.
Seems the problems begin when a (2) person tells his tale of woe and a (1) person gets on his case because he's convinced what the (2) guy is saying can't possibly be true, or the (1) guy is convinced that the (2) guy is at least overstating the case. Or -- when a (3) guy talks about or asks questions about problems with the camera that even Leica has admitted are there, and gets jumped on by a (1) guy for having an opinion different from his without owning the camera.
Once in a while someone will jump in with a totally unrelated blast, like the guy on Ted's "I love my M8" thread who was sure he'd been shooting longer than anyone and knew more about equipment than anyone and suggested that anyone with less knowledge than he had should "shoo... go away." When that happens it's time to moderate strongly because everyone's hackles get up and there are going to be some counter blasts.
But there's another kind of thing that happens that shouldn't be jumped on. I think Ted tends to be way overly defensive when someone suggests the M8 isn't yet up to snuff, for instance, but I also like some of his pictures, and I also want to be able to own and love the M8 as much as he does. I just can't do it until Leica makes some serious fixes. Clearly the M8 makes some fantastic pictures, but for me the uncertainties are too many at this point for me to depend on the camera in situations where I can't go back and re-shoot what I've shot and missed. Ted claims that doesn't happen because he's never had it happen. He's probably right and he probably got a camera that's the exact opposite of a lemon. But that doesn't mean the problems others are reporting don't exist. Bumping heads over these things sometimes raises hackles -- but so what. As long as the discussion is only heated and not obscene or way off the subject, let's not get carried away with the moderating. That probably would kill the whole thing.
(1) The M8 owner who's satisfied with the camera -- even loves it, Ted for instance.
(2) The M8 owner who's had problems and is either looking for help or who's decided he's made a mistake and is dropping the M8.
(3) People who would like to own the M8 but are waiting to see what's going to happen to it before they commit. I'm one of those, and from what I've seen so far, Ben Z is another.
Seems the problems begin when a (2) person tells his tale of woe and a (1) person gets on his case because he's convinced what the (2) guy is saying can't possibly be true, or the (1) guy is convinced that the (2) guy is at least overstating the case. Or -- when a (3) guy talks about or asks questions about problems with the camera that even Leica has admitted are there, and gets jumped on by a (1) guy for having an opinion different from his without owning the camera.
Once in a while someone will jump in with a totally unrelated blast, like the guy on Ted's "I love my M8" thread who was sure he'd been shooting longer than anyone and knew more about equipment than anyone and suggested that anyone with less knowledge than he had should "shoo... go away." When that happens it's time to moderate strongly because everyone's hackles get up and there are going to be some counter blasts.
But there's another kind of thing that happens that shouldn't be jumped on. I think Ted tends to be way overly defensive when someone suggests the M8 isn't yet up to snuff, for instance, but I also like some of his pictures, and I also want to be able to own and love the M8 as much as he does. I just can't do it until Leica makes some serious fixes. Clearly the M8 makes some fantastic pictures, but for me the uncertainties are too many at this point for me to depend on the camera in situations where I can't go back and re-shoot what I've shot and missed. Ted claims that doesn't happen because he's never had it happen. He's probably right and he probably got a camera that's the exact opposite of a lemon. But that doesn't mean the problems others are reporting don't exist. Bumping heads over these things sometimes raises hackles -- but so what. As long as the discussion is only heated and not obscene or way off the subject, let's not get carried away with the moderating. That probably would kill the whole thing.
Sparrow
Veteran
Should tightsqueez, whoever you are, read this I would like to wish you well in your deployment and hope you get some good photos whatever kit you take with you
With thanks
With thanks
ERV
Well-known
Sparrow said:
And that you come back safely and with Godspeed.
Personally, I wouldn't care if the man was using a busted up Holga he found in the middle of the desert. What is important for me is that he is trying to share with us, whether we appreciate it or not, what his life is like and how he sees his world (and ours) right now.
Sailor Ted
Well-known
This was never intended as a film vs. digital thread or an M8 vs any camera thread. As an M8 enthusiast I am glad to see a modern Leica being used in it's classic role of extreme reportage and have high hopes for it's success and that of the US soldier. If the M8 performs well and helps him to better capture his images then that will be the cherry on the sundae but of greatest importance I pray that this young man makes it home and in one piece. As an ex Marine my heart goes out to him and I understand his enthusiasm for capturing on film the most intense of human experience.
Peace
Peace
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
What amazes me is his freedom to post the pictures. I'm sure he is self-censoring, of course; he alludes to as much in some of his descriptions.
While I like his colour work (and it appears he has decided to go with colour for the rest of his work), I prefer the b&w.
While I like his colour work (and it appears he has decided to go with colour for the rest of his work), I prefer the b&w.
mwooten
light user
These are very powerful images. They convey a sense of grim horrific reality. I pray that the photographer comes home safe and well. I also pray that our colleague Raid's family gets through this safe.
Thanks for posting the links Sailor Ted.
Michael
Thanks for posting the links Sailor Ted.
Michael
VinceC
Veteran
>>What amazes me is his freedom to post the pictures.<<
If you hunt around a little online, you'll see that the e-generation fighting this war is blogging away and posting photos and videos all over the place. Some of it can be extremely graphic. Just about every American in Iraq and Afghanistan has a camera and Internet access. Using the Internet is encouraged for morale reasons, and some unit packing lists I've seen specifically encourage troops to bring cameras. They can also buy them in the PX or online by mail order.
If you hunt around a little online, you'll see that the e-generation fighting this war is blogging away and posting photos and videos all over the place. Some of it can be extremely graphic. Just about every American in Iraq and Afghanistan has a camera and Internet access. Using the Internet is encouraged for morale reasons, and some unit packing lists I've seen specifically encourage troops to bring cameras. They can also buy them in the PX or online by mail order.
Taqi
Established
Very interesting.
A bit off topic, but does anyone have any links to photojournalists' work in Iraq - I'm thinking of the Iraq equivalent of people like Larry Burrows, Henri Huet... I've read that the kind of combat photography that came out of Indochina doesn't happen anymore, partly because the demand for that kind of photojournalism has declined, and partly because governments, military etc have wised up . Images from soldiers intrigue me - it's a kind of paradox, because their photography comes from one end of a gun as it were, but at the same time it seems to bypass official control and has a different kind of impartiality from journalists working out there.
Edit - I suppose what I am interested in is whether the assymetry in the combat comes through in the photography...
A bit off topic, but does anyone have any links to photojournalists' work in Iraq - I'm thinking of the Iraq equivalent of people like Larry Burrows, Henri Huet... I've read that the kind of combat photography that came out of Indochina doesn't happen anymore, partly because the demand for that kind of photojournalism has declined, and partly because governments, military etc have wised up . Images from soldiers intrigue me - it's a kind of paradox, because their photography comes from one end of a gun as it were, but at the same time it seems to bypass official control and has a different kind of impartiality from journalists working out there.
Edit - I suppose what I am interested in is whether the assymetry in the combat comes through in the photography...
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reagan
hey, they're only Zorkis
IGMeanwell
Well-known
Honestly I think this is some great honest work to come out from Iraq
I get to see some snap shots my brother-in-law sends from Baghdad, he brought over his 4 year old olympus all weather P&S (its also been to the antarctic), and just takes shots of his medical work with soldiers and some civilians (as well as Iraqies he training)... some recent ones of him visiting Saddam's old palace. They give you a sense of environment but nothing else (which is fine because that was his only intention)
Though he should be sending back some picks of the effects of the supplies my sister collected from my neices local school to send over there (the civilians that come for help to the green zone will be able to take something home, if their parents allow them to do so, after receiving treatments and/or physicals).
These pictures give a great sense of the feeling of the unknown ... whether be the search and destroying of road side bombs or bodies in the street... it gives you at least a little perspective of the spectrum of that war front.
I think he will like the convenience of the M8, he can take more shots, and not worry about carrying the extra film around (though he'll probably pack it all).
Luckily Leica will be providing some protective IR filters ....
I wouldn't mind donating an good SD card or possibly a Rocket Blower (keep that sensor dust free) for him... his work is worth it
I get to see some snap shots my brother-in-law sends from Baghdad, he brought over his 4 year old olympus all weather P&S (its also been to the antarctic), and just takes shots of his medical work with soldiers and some civilians (as well as Iraqies he training)... some recent ones of him visiting Saddam's old palace. They give you a sense of environment but nothing else (which is fine because that was his only intention)
Though he should be sending back some picks of the effects of the supplies my sister collected from my neices local school to send over there (the civilians that come for help to the green zone will be able to take something home, if their parents allow them to do so, after receiving treatments and/or physicals).
These pictures give a great sense of the feeling of the unknown ... whether be the search and destroying of road side bombs or bodies in the street... it gives you at least a little perspective of the spectrum of that war front.
I think he will like the convenience of the M8, he can take more shots, and not worry about carrying the extra film around (though he'll probably pack it all).
Luckily Leica will be providing some protective IR filters ....
I wouldn't mind donating an good SD card or possibly a Rocket Blower (keep that sensor dust free) for him... his work is worth it
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tightsqueez
Well-known
Charlie Mike
Charlie Mike
First and foremost I'd like to thank all of you for support and interest in this strange Iraqi journey. The images are nothing more than what I see, what I experience day in and day out. While they are only 1% of what unfolds before me, they are a piece of history in which ALL of us bear responsibility for...I just happen to be here doing my part. I'm glad I could share.
So...the M8 huh? I really haven't followed the whole evolving dilemma with this camera but I know that Leicas are the most simple, robust tools that I have used. Sure, I could run rampant trying everything that comes out but you sometimes need to commit. So I did. No M is perfect but just as we all do with our close friends, I have learned them well. Leicas have this mystical reputation to them and for good reasons. I've got two of them to prove it. What does this have to do with the M8? Time will tell.
Digital has given me a totally different approach at seeing things, as I find I can gauge my evolution better. Will I scrap my flim approach? Of course not. And to say the truth...I believe that the D-LUX 3 is probably the most useful tool for my current situation. Is it the only? No. It's complexity has put a wrench in the seamless capture in front of me. Enter the M8.
For some of you who were wondering about film, scanning and so forth? Kodachrome has been the ONLY flim that can accurately resemble what it was like to be there when I captured an image. Am I still shooting Kodachrome over here? Not really. I feel that it made sense to try something else, as I feel as this is a different war I am fighting this timea around. The pictures you see are a bit magenta and somewhat dark. This was due to a combination of things. The film was old, but not by much and I'm sure the heat didn't help things much either. My scanner didn't do the slides justice the way they look to the eye. But regardless, they still feel what it was like here. When all is said and done, if my buddies that were here can say they "feel" like Iraq...that is good enough for me. And who knows, I may dump color completely and run with black and white?
Hopefully this new tool will show up within the next few days so I can quickly throw it to the wolves. I'll try my best to post as often as this war allows. Only 12 months to go! If any of you have any specific questions or what have you, feel free to contact me either through here or Flickr. Thanks again for everything. It would make sense to tell everyone to go out and shoot now...but I won't. Let's start with a beer; all good things are to follow.
Killing the day to live another,
..jAy..
Charlie Mike
First and foremost I'd like to thank all of you for support and interest in this strange Iraqi journey. The images are nothing more than what I see, what I experience day in and day out. While they are only 1% of what unfolds before me, they are a piece of history in which ALL of us bear responsibility for...I just happen to be here doing my part. I'm glad I could share.
So...the M8 huh? I really haven't followed the whole evolving dilemma with this camera but I know that Leicas are the most simple, robust tools that I have used. Sure, I could run rampant trying everything that comes out but you sometimes need to commit. So I did. No M is perfect but just as we all do with our close friends, I have learned them well. Leicas have this mystical reputation to them and for good reasons. I've got two of them to prove it. What does this have to do with the M8? Time will tell.
Digital has given me a totally different approach at seeing things, as I find I can gauge my evolution better. Will I scrap my flim approach? Of course not. And to say the truth...I believe that the D-LUX 3 is probably the most useful tool for my current situation. Is it the only? No. It's complexity has put a wrench in the seamless capture in front of me. Enter the M8.
For some of you who were wondering about film, scanning and so forth? Kodachrome has been the ONLY flim that can accurately resemble what it was like to be there when I captured an image. Am I still shooting Kodachrome over here? Not really. I feel that it made sense to try something else, as I feel as this is a different war I am fighting this timea around. The pictures you see are a bit magenta and somewhat dark. This was due to a combination of things. The film was old, but not by much and I'm sure the heat didn't help things much either. My scanner didn't do the slides justice the way they look to the eye. But regardless, they still feel what it was like here. When all is said and done, if my buddies that were here can say they "feel" like Iraq...that is good enough for me. And who knows, I may dump color completely and run with black and white?
Hopefully this new tool will show up within the next few days so I can quickly throw it to the wolves. I'll try my best to post as often as this war allows. Only 12 months to go! If any of you have any specific questions or what have you, feel free to contact me either through here or Flickr. Thanks again for everything. It would make sense to tell everyone to go out and shoot now...but I won't. Let's start with a beer; all good things are to follow.
Killing the day to live another,
..jAy..
VinceC
Veteran
Welcome to Rangefinder Forum (though the M8 crowd can be a little rambunctious).
Working for Stars and Stripes in '90-'91, I shot the Gulf War with a mixture of Nikon rangefinders and SLRs, to include a quite bitter battle with Iraqi forces that somehow got overlooked in the postwar proclamations that it had all been an aerial-bombing walkover.
Back then we typed up our newspaper stories on a typewriter and faxed them to the main office. I developed Ilford HP5 in a makeshift darkroom using HC-110, then transmitted them to the home office in Germany using a Leafax, which sent an image at 1200 to 2400 baud, approximately 7 minutes per black-and-white image. We eventually set up a modem and dedicated line to transmit text stories at 1200 baud with error-checking.
Working for Stars and Stripes in '90-'91, I shot the Gulf War with a mixture of Nikon rangefinders and SLRs, to include a quite bitter battle with Iraqi forces that somehow got overlooked in the postwar proclamations that it had all been an aerial-bombing walkover.
Back then we typed up our newspaper stories on a typewriter and faxed them to the main office. I developed Ilford HP5 in a makeshift darkroom using HC-110, then transmitted them to the home office in Germany using a Leafax, which sent an image at 1200 to 2400 baud, approximately 7 minutes per black-and-white image. We eventually set up a modem and dedicated line to transmit text stories at 1200 baud with error-checking.
mtbbrian
RF's ROCK!andFilm RULES!!
Hoo Ahh!
Great photographs, from a photographer who I am sure finds it challenging to make great photographs.
God Bless Jay!
Brian
Great photographs, from a photographer who I am sure finds it challenging to make great photographs.
God Bless Jay!
Brian
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fgianni
Trainee Amateur
Mmm an m8 in an extremely hostile and dusty environent like the desert seems a bit of a risk to me, my tool of choice would be either a film Leica or an environmentally sealed DSLR.
But that's just me.
But that's just me.
Jay,
Welcome to RFF. Thankyou for taking the time to post here.
Good luck, and come home safe.
Brian
Welcome to RFF. Thankyou for taking the time to post here.
Good luck, and come home safe.
Brian
Thanks for checking in Jay, the best to you and your mates.
Trius
Waiting on Maitani
Jay: Welcome here. I posted a comment on flickr to encourage you to keep up the b&w work.
You make an interesting comment about the D3, thanks for that.
As for the Kodachrome scanning, my very limited experience is that less-than-perfect scanning often produces the magenta cast.
You make an interesting comment about the D3, thanks for that.
As for the Kodachrome scanning, my very limited experience is that less-than-perfect scanning often produces the magenta cast.