M8 Oh Drat

[taffy]

Same thing happened to me at about the same shutter count. Got it fixed in HK for USD 400. I checked with Singapore and they were charging SGD 1300 and in the US USD 1200.

Now it works just fine.

 

[Michael Markey]

You mean the fact that there is such a database also for M8? There is one for about 100 or so Canon models. 🙂

Really .. well that does change things a tad I guess .

 

[jaapv]

How does one defend that 14,000-30,000 actuations is acceptable...how is it that Leica has gotten away with this...???

My Nikon F4 has at least 35,000 shutter actuations that I have personally put on it and I bought it used and I've shot over 9,000 pictures with my used F5 and what I paid for both of these cameras together is a fraction of what digital Leicas are going for...just doesn't sound like a good deal to me...

Anacdotal evidence is no help - the highest shuttercount recorded on an M8 is (or was 1 1/2 year ago, it will be considerably more now) 350.000 without a hitch.

 

[goamules]

Remember when a TV or stereo cost so much, it was economical to have repairmen? Today a TV costs $400, (equivalent to $100 in 1970) and when it breaks, it is thrown in the garbage. All electro-mechanical devices break, but the digital Leicas cost 5 times what any other camera costs.

Remember when cars were all mechanical, and could be repaired cheaply? And how everyone complains that today's cars are so complex, and electronic, that you cannot work on them? Same with the digital Leicas.

I'm saying, digital Leicas will break, and will be too expensive to fix. That's why I've decided to stay away from them. A client offered to trade me his M9 for a rare antique LF lens I own. I declined because I said "what will I do when this complex, exotic electronic device breaks?" He admitted that it already had a problem, but that he sent it to Leica and got a full upper replacement that cost him quite a lot. So now he's got too much money in it, and they're already too expensive.

Sorry, but nothing I've read has convinced me a modern Leica (or any Leica really) is more reliable or durable than any other camera. All I read is attempted justification for their extreme high price. I drive Toyotas and Mazdas, not Lamborginis and Bentleys.

 

[raid]

So it is a matter of failure based on some probability model. It is a matter of luck.

 

[willie_901]

Yes, Statistics is the study of confused numbers....😛
Bob

Exactly, which is how come I'm a Bayesian.

 

[willie_901]

Anacdotal evidence is no help - the highest shuttercount recorded on an M8 is (or was 1 1/2 year ago, it will be considerably more now) 350.000 without a hitch.

And once again, it is great to be in the good tail of a Gaussian distribution.

 

[raid]

Willie,
People have different "problems" they are dealing with, and yours is being a Bayesian!

 

[raid]

And once again, it is great to be in the good tail of a Gaussian distribution.

The M8 time to failure distribution may not be Gaussian. I would rather see that distribution being skewed in such a way to have a very low probability for a short mean time to failure. 😎

 

[jaapv]

I got my driving license in 1964, drove for about 1.5 million Km since - but I have never driven a Toyata or Mazda 😱

Remember when a TV or stereo cost so much, it was economical to have repairmen? Today a TV costs $400, (equivalent to $100 in 1970) and when it breaks, it is thrown in the garbage. All electro-mechanical devices break, but the digital Leicas cost 5 times what any other camera costs.

Remember when cars were all mechanical, and could be repaired cheaply? And how everyone complains that today's cars are so complex, and electronic, that you cannot work on them? Same with the digital Leicas.

I'm saying, digital Leicas will break, and will be too expensive to fix. That's why I've decided to stay away from them. A client offered to trade me his M9 for a rare antique LF lens I own. I declined because I said "what will I do when this complex, exotic electronic device breaks?" He admitted that it already had a problem, but that he sent it to Leica and got a full upper replacement that cost him quite a lot. So now he's got too much money in it, and they're already too expensive.

Sorry, but nothing I've read has convinced me a modern Leica (or any Leica really) is more reliable or durable than any other camera. All I read is attempted justification for their extreme high price. I drive Toyotas and Mazdas, not Lamborginis and Bentleys.

 

[Godfrey]

Terrible customer service, I think. If new camera failed they should have sent him replacement set and take in failed one, not making customer sick by 4 (FOUR !!!) repair iterations. By today's laws customer in first six months in a case of failure can take back money if he chooses so; well, this depends on country but this what I can choose from). ...

While the process was frustrating due to its lengthiness, the service was excellent. The folks at Leica USA were prompt and on point for every part of the cycle, loaned him a camera the second time, and again through the subsequent cycles until his camera was finally fixed. The followed up with him after the final repair three more times just to be sure it was taken care of properly and he was happy with it. My friend was not delighted with having the problem, but was delighted with Leica and how they took care of him through it. It made him a lifetime Leica owner.

So perceptions differ. For myself, I'd *much rather* have a company look after me, treat me and my camera like individuals, builds a relationship, and takes care of me whatever it takes, than one that simply tosses a replacement unit at me.

G

 

[willie_901]

So it is a matter of failure based on some probability model. It is a matter of luck.

The failure is based on a state of nature. The shutter design, materials, manufacturing tolerances, and usage conditions determine how it fails.

But the M8 perspective buyer has to consider, a hypothesis: is the M8 shutter life a problem or not. The buyer could care less about how the shutter fails. They only care if the expected shutter life is an unacceptable risk.

Unless the M8 is different from every other manufactured device, a Gaussian distribution is a useful model to describe the real, but unknown, distribution of M8 shutter lives. In fact there are very few physicsl phenomena that are not. The M8 shutter life data base is useful because it gives the Gaussian a scale and some idea about the distribution width. Neither the OP's experience or jaapv's report are very useful to someone considering M8 ownership. Very few owners will experience either of those shutter lives.

If one is trying to decide whether or not to buy a M8 (or any other camera), the expected shutter life can be ignored. Very early failure is bad luck and a very long shutter life is good luck.

 

[raid]

I learned this lesson a long time ago. Whether film or digital, I always have pairs of similar cameras, if only for the peace of mind. When my paycheck depended on my images, as a rule I would shoot a few frames on a second camera when I knew I had "the money shot" in another camera.

The lesson is recalled as something my boss way back then said: I need your photos, not excuses. The lessons learned the hard way are the ones remembered best. 😉

The M9 is my back-up camera for my M8! 😀
They are both in one small camera bag.

 

[Godfrey]

I learned this lesson a long time ago. Whether film or digital, I always have pairs of similar cameras, if only for the peace of mind. When my paycheck depended on my images, as a rule I would shoot a few frames on a second camera when I knew I had "the money shot" in another camera. ...

When I'm being paid to do photography, of course I agree completely. Although I have rarely if ever pulled the second camera backup out of the bag at all.

When I'm doing my own photography, for whatever reason, the other truth I've learned is that regardless of how many opportunities I might miss, for whatever reason, there are an infinite number of other photo opportunities that I can take advantage of.

So if I'm out on a photo walk and my camera breaks, I just put it aside, enjoy the rest of the walk, and go back again some other time. Or look for other photo opportunities when next I've got the moment to go shooting. I feel no pressure to get every photo op that comes along. There are plenty to choose from, at any time.

G

 

[raid]

Notice that the graph for the data on M8 failures is not symmetric about its mean. It is skewed. As expected, there are fewer cases of early failure time as compared with late failure time.



http://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/leica_m8.htm

The failure is based on a state of nature. The shutter design, materials, manufacturing tolerances, and usage conditions determine how it fails.

But the M8 perspective buyer has to consider, a hypothesis: is the M8 shutter life a problem or not. The buyer could care less about how the shutter fails. They only care if the expected shutter life is an unacceptable risk.

Unless the M8 is different from every other manufactured device, a Gaussian distribution is a useful model to describe the real, but unknown, distribution of M8 shutter lives. In fact there are very few physicsl phenomena that are not. The M8 shutter life data base is useful because it gives the Gaussian a scale and some idea about the distribution width. Neither the OP's experience or jaapv's report are very useful to someone considering M8 ownership. Very few owners will experience either of those shutter lives.

If one is trying to decide whether or not to buy a M8 (or any other camera), the expected shutter life can be ignored. Very early failure is bad luck and a very long shutter life is good luck.

 

[froyd]

When I'm being paid to do photography, of course I agree completely. Although I have rarely if ever pulled the second camera backup out of the bag at all.

When I'm doing my own photography, for whatever reason, the other truth I've learned is that regardless of how many opportunities I might miss, for whatever reason, there are an infinite number of other photo opportunities that I can take advantage of.

So if I'm out on a photo walk and my camera breaks, I just put it aside, enjoy the rest of the walk, and go back again some other time. Or look for other photo opportunities when next I've got the moment to go shooting. I feel no pressure to get every photo op that comes along. There are plenty to choose from, at any time.

G

I think it was Winogrand that said something along the lines that no pictures existed while he was reloading his camera. I thought that was a pretty amazing statement for a guy who shot dozens of rolls in a single outing yet had to come to terms with some "down time," and possible missed shots, while reloading.

 

[ray*j*gun]

When an M8 is upgraded to an M8u does anyone know if the actuation count with-in the camera is reset to zero or if the count continues?

Thanks.

 

[bherman]

It doesn't sound feasible to me that an M8, when sold new was what, around $6000-$7000.00, and a $1500.00 Nikon can claim 150,000 tested actuations on its shutter?

What happened to German craftsmanship? I know photographers who have far exceeded 100,000 actuations on their M3 and M4s and they just keep clicking away.

It doesn't make sense to me that albeit a partially mechanical camera, that the shutter's MTBF (mean time between failure) is that low.

 

[willie_901]

Notice that the graph for the data on M8 failures is not symmetric about its mean. It is skewed. As expected, there are fewer cases of early failure time as compared with late failure time.



http://www.olegkikin.com/shutterlife/leica_m8.htm

We'll check again in the distant future after 90% of all M8 shutters have failed. Right now the samples are biased. This sort of thing can be a problem when a frequency of occurrence statistic is applied to a state of knowledge hypothesis.

 

[Godfrey]

It doesn't sound feasible to me that an M8, when sold new was what, around $6000-$7000.00, and a $1500.00 Nikon can claim 150,000 tested actuations on its shutter?

What happened to German craftsmanship? I know photographers who have far exceeded 100,000 actuations on their M3 and M4s and they just keep clicking away.

It doesn't make sense to me that albeit a partially mechanical camera, that the shutter's MTBF (mean time between failure) is that low.

It isn't. MTBF is an estimated value based on a representative sample of shutters which have been tested to the failure point. Any individual shutter can have a problem at any time.

That's the nature of a statistical estimate.