pvdhaar
Peter
That's a bit like pushing the car around for a week to see whether you like cycling..proenca said:
The DSLR is so different from an M, that it doesn't tell anything about the strengths of an RF. What's worse, the 50/1.8 AF isn't exactly representative of any RF 50mm. The image quality at f5.6 is less than any of the Nikon f2.8 zooms wide open, the manual focus feel isn't there, it doesn't have a DOF scale, and the field of view on a DSLR corresponds to a 75..
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Joop van Heijgen said:
Where did you find that opinion? As it is the general consensus is that an M9 is a considerable number of years away, as is a ZI DRF. A case in point is the Digilux2, which is arguably totally outdated, but there is no successor and it commands premium prices on e-bay, totally against the general "digital" trend.
Ben Z
Veteran
I can't advise here, because I don't own an M8, but all I can say is that I wish I'd had the contemporary equivalent of $3500-4800 to spend when I was 18 and that a camera purchase was the most pressing thing on my mind. At that time I was scrounging to buy a new carburetor for my 20 yr old car so I could get to one of my 3 jobs so I could come up with next semester's tuition for college, and wondering when Uncle Sam would be sending me a ticket to Saigon
EmilGil
Well-known
Why buy new?
Get a used M6 and a lens for starters, try it for a couple of weeks/months and then sell it. If you liked the way of shooting, get an M7/MP/M8, if you didn't like it you haven't lost too much money.
A brand new M7/MP is $3500, a 2nd hand M6 $1200. Don't worry about warranty, the chance you'll ever use it is very small. A second hand M7/MP is approximately $1800-2200 so if you don't like RF, you lose $1300-1700 selling it compared to a M6. I know lots of funny things you can do for $1700...
Get a used M6 and a lens for starters, try it for a couple of weeks/months and then sell it. If you liked the way of shooting, get an M7/MP/M8, if you didn't like it you haven't lost too much money.
A brand new M7/MP is $3500, a 2nd hand M6 $1200. Don't worry about warranty, the chance you'll ever use it is very small. A second hand M7/MP is approximately $1800-2200 so if you don't like RF, you lose $1300-1700 selling it compared to a M6. I know lots of funny things you can do for $1700...
jamiewakeham
Long time lurker
I'd be scared about spending this sort of money on a camera system I'd never tried before! People generally start off by trying a $50 Canonet or similar... if you decide you don't like the RF way (irrespective of how you record the image) you're going to take a huge depreciation hit.
You obviously want something now to play with. No problem - I get like that. I'd suggest going to the local leica dealer and picking up an M2 or an M3 with an older 35mm or 50mm 'cron - whatever they have in stock - and a cheap handheld incident light meter. Spend some time with these. Marvel at how different to a DSLR they are.
Then, you can choose to get an MP/M7/M8. You can sell the M2 or M3 for what you paid for it, near enough, and the lens will be useful.
Meanwhile go read everything Stephen has to say at www.Cameraquest.com...
Jamie
You obviously want something now to play with. No problem - I get like that. I'd suggest going to the local leica dealer and picking up an M2 or an M3 with an older 35mm or 50mm 'cron - whatever they have in stock - and a cheap handheld incident light meter. Spend some time with these. Marvel at how different to a DSLR they are.
Then, you can choose to get an MP/M7/M8. You can sell the M2 or M3 for what you paid for it, near enough, and the lens will be useful.
Meanwhile go read everything Stephen has to say at www.Cameraquest.com...
Jamie
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shadowfox
Darkroom printing lives
Ben, THANK YOU for bringing us back to earth... (well, the earth that *I* knew, at leastBen Z said:I can't advise here, because I don't own an M8, but all I can say is that I wish I'd had the contemporary equivalent of $3500-4800 to spend when I was 18 and that a camera purchase was the most pressing thing on my mind. At that time I was scrounging to buy a new carburetor for my 20 yr old car so I could get to one of my 3 jobs so I could come up with next semester's tuition for college, and wondering when Uncle Sam would be sending me a ticket to Saigon
). All this talk about D200 this, M8 that, MP there, is spinning me out of orbit.I'm not too old yet, but I am old enough to remember the question being "A utilitarian beat up truck" or "A more comfortable cheap used car" when I was in my 20-ies on my first "real" job.
Guys, I'm not ragging on you being young and can afford an M8, I just hope for your sakes that you have earned at least some major portion of the fund going into the camera, and I'll tell you why... because it will make the camera, whichever you chose, *that* more meaningful and fulfilling.
As for the choice, M3 or MP, accept no substituition
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
I paid for my M8, my M4P and all my glass, I also paid for my Hassy System and my Fuji S3 and it's glass.
I grow up in spoiled america but the camera gear is all bought with my hard earned green.
I took the year off and worked my tail off to pay for what I wanted, I would except no compromise, if I wanted it, I worked for it, and bought it.
I grow up in spoiled america but the camera gear is all bought with my hard earned green.
I took the year off and worked my tail off to pay for what I wanted, I would except no compromise, if I wanted it, I worked for it, and bought it.
Joop van Heijgen
Established
jaapv said:
Within 3 or 4 years the M8 is an 'oldfashioned' camera!
Digital techniques are developing faster than you can buy a camera!
BillBingham2
Registered User
I saved money from jobs and birthday gifts to afford a Nikkormat FTn and two Nikkors. From where I lived then, that was like $5K is for hardworking (or well off) kids today. I can find no fault in his wanting an M8 or M7, why not?
The comments towards the M7 or MP are very valid, for the most part. I think the discipline that has been spoken of is just as valid on an M8 as it is on my M6. It’s how you use the tool that counts. Digital has advantages in that you can take the camera home, develop the RAW images on your computer and never worry about what is being flushed down the drain. Or if you even have access to a darkroom. I’ve seen tons of film photographers over the years with very fast motor drives trying to get that moment in time that is the photograph. While the M motor is not as fast, you can do the same thing there. If you can handle the initial outlay, go with the M8 or an Epson RD-1. Enforce the discipline yourself, but have the extra tools at your disposal.
You will not do yourself wrong by going with an MP, M7 or even an M6, but digital is a lot easier and in the end, costs less. Do not get me wrong, I have rapidwinders for both Ms and a motor for each of my F2s. There are times when I am shooting stuff that happens too fast and I do not know the flow well enough, it’s just handy. But for 99% of my street shooting, no winders, just me and my camera.
If you really want to try street shooting at its bare minimum, pick up a black Bessa L and put a black CV 25/4 with a finder on it. Small, no rangefinder, built in meter with LEDs on the top of the camera, your camera is almost invisible to people. It is a fun combination that I love. I use it as my walking around camera. When I am not carrying my M6, a Bessa L is at my side.
Another option is to look at a Bessa, the new R4A is a great street camera. Not built as well as a Leica, but costs a lot less (you can buy about six of them for the price of a M8). They are not Leicas, something about Leicas that you can not put into words.
Read http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm for some great info.
Lens wise, while Leica glass is wonderful, not sure it’s worth the cost unless you are selling big enlargements of your pictures. If you go M8 or RD-1, go with a CV 28/1.9 and then a fast 50mm. I am not a 50mm person, so I’m not sure which one. If you go R4A, get a ZI 25/2.8 (Tony at Popflash has great prices on them). As a second lens, look for a used black Nikkor 85/2 (black is lighter and newer) in LTM and get an adapter or get a new Leica 75/2. If you go M7 or M6, the CV 28/1.9 is a great first lens and then either the 85 or the 75. The 75/2 is much smaller than the f1.4 version and costs less.
In general CV lenses are a great place to start. Very sharp and many of the new ones are built to a much better standard. Again, not a Leica lens, but close. There are dozens of great LTM lenses from yesteryear that you can use (e.g. Nikkor 105/2.5, the mother of all short telephotos) on just about any Leica body.
Read all you can here, search through old threads in the forum lists, ask questions (like you have) and find a store to go touch and feel the cameras. I do not know any in Boston, but I’m sure this is still a good one or two out there.
Think before you shoot, look for the best angle to tell the story and go there. Think sniper not machine gun, one or two pictures of a scene max. Not everything that looks interesting is, with work you can make it an interesting picture. Use your light meter as a recommendation not the law, not everything is an 18% gray card think of what and how you are metering. The best way to become a great photographer is practice.
B2 (;->
The comments towards the M7 or MP are very valid, for the most part. I think the discipline that has been spoken of is just as valid on an M8 as it is on my M6. It’s how you use the tool that counts. Digital has advantages in that you can take the camera home, develop the RAW images on your computer and never worry about what is being flushed down the drain. Or if you even have access to a darkroom. I’ve seen tons of film photographers over the years with very fast motor drives trying to get that moment in time that is the photograph. While the M motor is not as fast, you can do the same thing there. If you can handle the initial outlay, go with the M8 or an Epson RD-1. Enforce the discipline yourself, but have the extra tools at your disposal.
You will not do yourself wrong by going with an MP, M7 or even an M6, but digital is a lot easier and in the end, costs less. Do not get me wrong, I have rapidwinders for both Ms and a motor for each of my F2s. There are times when I am shooting stuff that happens too fast and I do not know the flow well enough, it’s just handy. But for 99% of my street shooting, no winders, just me and my camera.
If you really want to try street shooting at its bare minimum, pick up a black Bessa L and put a black CV 25/4 with a finder on it. Small, no rangefinder, built in meter with LEDs on the top of the camera, your camera is almost invisible to people. It is a fun combination that I love. I use it as my walking around camera. When I am not carrying my M6, a Bessa L is at my side.
Another option is to look at a Bessa, the new R4A is a great street camera. Not built as well as a Leica, but costs a lot less (you can buy about six of them for the price of a M8). They are not Leicas, something about Leicas that you can not put into words.
Read http://www.cameraquest.com/classics.htm for some great info.
Lens wise, while Leica glass is wonderful, not sure it’s worth the cost unless you are selling big enlargements of your pictures. If you go M8 or RD-1, go with a CV 28/1.9 and then a fast 50mm. I am not a 50mm person, so I’m not sure which one. If you go R4A, get a ZI 25/2.8 (Tony at Popflash has great prices on them). As a second lens, look for a used black Nikkor 85/2 (black is lighter and newer) in LTM and get an adapter or get a new Leica 75/2. If you go M7 or M6, the CV 28/1.9 is a great first lens and then either the 85 or the 75. The 75/2 is much smaller than the f1.4 version and costs less.
In general CV lenses are a great place to start. Very sharp and many of the new ones are built to a much better standard. Again, not a Leica lens, but close. There are dozens of great LTM lenses from yesteryear that you can use (e.g. Nikkor 105/2.5, the mother of all short telephotos) on just about any Leica body.
Read all you can here, search through old threads in the forum lists, ask questions (like you have) and find a store to go touch and feel the cameras. I do not know any in Boston, but I’m sure this is still a good one or two out there.
Think before you shoot, look for the best angle to tell the story and go there. Think sniper not machine gun, one or two pictures of a scene max. Not everything that looks interesting is, with work you can make it an interesting picture. Use your light meter as a recommendation not the law, not everything is an 18% gray card think of what and how you are metering. The best way to become a great photographer is practice.
B2 (;->
intinsifi
Established
Hey, thanks for all the adivce everyone. I am not in a hurry to buy, so don't worry about that part. I've played with an M6 and and M7 before. I know that I like rangefinders, and I know that I hate using my D200. I pull great pics from the D200, but even on manual I don't feel like I am doing anything. There are no depth of field markings on the lenses that I own, so I always use autofocus. There is no reason to use it on manual, because I usually shoot wide open. I use AE a lot, and the meter is good so there is no reason to set the shutter on the D200. I want a camera that I am forced to set the shutter. The only thing I am afraid of is missing certain moments. Is it hard to set the shutter on an MP to get the correct exposure? I know in digital, it is easy to overexpose or underexpose. I heard that you don't have to worry about it as much as you have to on digital cameras?
The only reason I would buy the M7 is because of the AE. My main priority is to find out whether or not I can shoot efficeintly without it.
The only reason I would buy the M7 is because of the AE. My main priority is to find out whether or not I can shoot efficeintly without it.
BillBingham2
Registered User
Rent an M6 for two weeks. Rent a 50mm lens with it. Perhaps even a 35 or a 28 if you can. Run some film through it and see what you think.
I can let you barrow two lenses for that time if you would like. A 35mm and a 105mm, both Komrua, a bit slow, it may give a bit more experience.
B2 (;->
I can let you barrow two lenses for that time if you would like. A 35mm and a 105mm, both Komrua, a bit slow, it may give a bit more experience.
B2 (;->
intinsifi
Established
BillBingham2 said:
Renting can be expensive. I've rented some primes for my Nikon, and I can't imagine renting a whole camera.
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
Or, you could get a used M6 and a used RD1 and make everyone happy.
Use the leftover money to stock up on a bunch of CV lens and you're dialed.
Use the leftover money to stock up on a bunch of CV lens and you're dialed.
intinsifi
Established
cmogi10 said:
Nah, I'm going to buy new regardless. Its just between the M7 and the MP. I am going to get a 50mm Summilux for whatever body I get. I don't need a telephoto for street shooting because I like the thrill of being close to the subject. The only other lens I would consider getting is a 35mm. I would either get the 35 or the 50 now, and then I would get the other later. I want the MP or an M7 as a collectors item also.
I like to buy new for things that I really care about; therefore, buying new is a must in this situation.
cmogi10
Bodhisattva
I don't agree with you in this position, but it's your money and your call.
Hah, and I thought I spent a lot of money, I want your job.
Hah, and I thought I spent a lot of money, I want your job.
maddoc
... likes film again.
Well ... If you are really into buying a new RF camera and want to go the "all-manual-way" then the only choice is a MP or a M6TTL if you can still find one. About "collectors item" ... when you are going to do street photography and want to be close to the subject you will end up with a camera that has scratches and maybe some dents on it after some time so forget about "collectors-item".
A Leica is either good as a tool but then it is not a collectors item or for fondling and keeping it wrapped in a cabinet but then better never use it...
Gabor
A Leica is either good as a tool but then it is not a collectors item or for fondling and keeping it wrapped in a cabinet but then better never use it...
Gabor
Mshooter
Got Film?
I think you will still have enough money to buy a Nikon 5000ED since you're deciding on an M7, "if ever".
M8 is a good camera if you will shoot professionaly like wedding, b-day's and stuffs. I will always recomed it.
But if you want to be artistic and be creative utilizing varried film signitures and grain characteristics from colored to gray-scale B&W, my vote is for the M7.
Film developing is easier than thought, you don't even need a darkroom for develop and scan process.
Check this out, how a digital shooter with little film experience ventured film and learned to develop so quickly.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/film-forum/18838-just-joined-film-club.html
Keep the D200 it's a good camera and you will need it for anything that require quick result.
Best,
-Ron
M8 is a good camera if you will shoot professionaly like wedding, b-day's and stuffs. I will always recomed it.
But if you want to be artistic and be creative utilizing varried film signitures and grain characteristics from colored to gray-scale B&W, my vote is for the M7.
Film developing is easier than thought, you don't even need a darkroom for develop and scan process.
Check this out, how a digital shooter with little film experience ventured film and learned to develop so quickly.
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/film-forum/18838-just-joined-film-club.html
Keep the D200 it's a good camera and you will need it for anything that require quick result.
Best,
-Ron
herbet
Newbie
I've been there
I've been there
ended up with an M7+summicron 35+Coolsacan V and am having a blast. my D2H is now resting in the closet.
I did try an M6 for some time, basically the same camera as the MP, and missed a lot of shots. in street photography and candid moments, by the time I set the riht exposure and focused the moment was gone. some people can get real fast at it, but it didn't work for me. if you're shooting b&w or C41, you can rely on the film latitude but I like slides (Fuji Astia, Velvia and Provia) and as such have to nail the exposure. anyway, you can always go manual with the M7, just take it out of Auto. mine was used but If I had the budget for a new one I'd get an a'Lacarte with engravings... drools.
I have to say that I do love the MPs look though, maybe someday I'll get one..
here's some of my pictures with the M7 http://www.flickr.com/photos/8915401@N05/sets/72157601173944235/
I've been there
ended up with an M7+summicron 35+Coolsacan V and am having a blast. my D2H is now resting in the closet.
I did try an M6 for some time, basically the same camera as the MP, and missed a lot of shots. in street photography and candid moments, by the time I set the riht exposure and focused the moment was gone. some people can get real fast at it, but it didn't work for me. if you're shooting b&w or C41, you can rely on the film latitude but I like slides (Fuji Astia, Velvia and Provia) and as such have to nail the exposure. anyway, you can always go manual with the M7, just take it out of Auto. mine was used but If I had the budget for a new one I'd get an a'Lacarte with engravings... drools.
I have to say that I do love the MPs look though, maybe someday I'll get one..
here's some of my pictures with the M7 http://www.flickr.com/photos/8915401@N05/sets/72157601173944235/
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usccharles
Well-known
intinsifi said:
you should find a good camera shop that carries used leica gear. i love new things too but leica gear is so durable, its pretty ridiculous to buy new stuff when there are plenty of the same items, used, for alot less. and especially with lenses. my new 50 lux is great but i'm still trying to break it in and the focus ring is still so dang tight! my 35 summilux on the other hand, bought used, turns smooth like a babies butt.
new stuff is good, but i would rather spend the extra cash to buy more gear if i can find good used equipment. there are also a ton of mint condition used M7/MP and even M6s out there. save the money and buy another lens, a used one perhaps?
find a good reliable used dealer who stands by their products and your set
just my 2 cents
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intinsifi
Established
thanks for rhe input everyone. I got my M7 two weeks ago and I carry it with me everywhere. Ive only shot 4 rolls so far, but I think these 4 rolls are some of the best pictures rhat i have ever taken. I will share them with you guys once I get my film scanner.