Olsen
Well-known
Leica's price increases were justified. They express the cost level of producing the stuff - in a deteriorating dollar. If this means that their huge volume of regular American customers won't buy Leica gear, then they will go bust.
Regarding the European car industry - Read their annual reports and get a feeling of what the fall of the US $ really means for them. - Or for just any industry.
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
I don't see why PMU is being jumped on for expressing his disdain of Leica pricing ... you don't have to personally suffer an injustice to be aware of it and being told "well just don't buy the stuff and it won't effect you" doesn't gel with me.
And Ray Nalley ... you're right on with your comment about Leica needing to hit the ball out of the park at Photokina ... I think in the photographic world Leice have struggled through the preliminaries but this is the world series now and they need to return home with a win.
Coach Kauffman needs this!
And Ray Nalley ... you're right on with your comment about Leica needing to hit the ball out of the park at Photokina ... I think in the photographic world Leice have struggled through the preliminaries but this is the world series now and they need to return home with a win.
Coach Kauffman needs this!
tomasis
Well-known
Do you think if I follow Lamborghini forum, I'd see lousy complaints of price of their cars? it should cost as a Toyota Camry according to people who like to dream 
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Do you think if I follow Lamborghini forum, I'd see lousy complaints of price of their cars? it should cost as a Toyota Camry according to people who like to dream
If you can afford to own a Lamborghini I wouldn't think that you have much in life to complain about generally to be honest!
pmu
Well-known
Do you think if I follow Lamborghini forum, I'd see lousy complaints of price of their cars? it should cost as a Toyota Camry according to people who like to dream
I don't know anything about cars and I don't want to know
But like you did notice yourself: because of the pricing of Leicas the company has finally become a "lamborghini of cameras". In other worlds it's status as a hc professional photographic tool making factory status is now gone and it is now just making super expensive jewelry. I don't care about jewelry either. Well, to be exact: for these past few years they have not been making new lenses to the market which just happen to be expensive -- they just decided to put bigger price tag to all those products that allready existed (in a much lower price...).Did Lamborghini raise the price of their same car model the same % like Leica with their lenses? The fact is that maybe 5 years ago you could buy a 35 summilux almost the same price that now you will get 50mm cron. You can clearly see it from used markets.
To me these adds looks like I am reading adds from 1970's or something. But these lenses were sold second hand about 6 years ago:
-I still have my 50 Summilux for sale. This is the new version with the buit-in hood, and is in mint condition with box, case caps and paperwork. $950 or offer.
-FS: Near New 35mm summilux F1.4 M ASPH (Chrome Version) with hood, leather case and box, gray market, just have it for few month and few rolls on it. all lens and cosmatic are prefect. no difference compare with band new. $1359.00
-FS user Leica Summilux 50mm 1:1.4 M black w/ hood --- Cosmetic condition is poor but with the exception of a nick on the back element it seems mechanically and optically to be fine and the results I have obtained seem to confirm that. Caps and hood included. Price $525
-... a chrome 35mm Summilux ASPH lens I need to sell. ... in mint condition, ... $1550 for the lens
-FS: Leica 50 Summicron Anniversary ... Serviced last month by Sherry Krauter. Perfect glass. Some normal wear, no dents or scratches. $700 firm
-FS: Leica Summicron 35 ASPH Black Paint!
... Willing to sacrifice. Mint. Shade and cap included but no box. $1450 + shipping. Firm
You see...the prices are in totally different world compared to todays prices! And those were ONLY SIX YEARS AGO! That kind of price increase would be OK in much longer period. 6 years is like yesterday. And let's not forget that these much higher prices have been for a while now.
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I don't think it is a very sound financial policy to buy a camera/lens -any camera and/or lens, not just Leica- if you can barely afford it. There are more important things in life to teeter on the brink for....
btgc
Veteran
this is wisdom, so overlooked this days. It applies to mortgages, cars, yachts, travels, watches - anything. Though this days financial orgs are happy to have another ant, bringing %% them each month.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Keith,
What puzzles me is where the 'injustice' lies.
Is it 'unjust' that I can't afford something?
I suppose I could look at it that way, but it would be more than a little arrogant to do so.
Cheers,
Roger
Keith
The best camera is one that still works!
Roger,
Well ... injustice may have been a little over the top, granted.
I do think it's damned unjust that you have a dishwasher and I don't though!
Cheers ... Keith
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
I don't know anything about cars and I don't want to know
Did Lamborghini raise the price of their same car model the same % like Leica with their lenses? The fact is that maybe 5 years ago you could buy a 35 summilux almost the same price that now you will get 50mm cron. You can clearly see it from used markets.
To me these adds looks like I am reading adds from 1970's or something. But these lenses were sold second hand about 6 years ago:
-I still have my 50 Summilux for sale. This is the new version with the buit-in hood, and is in mint condition with box, case caps and paperwork. $950 or offer.
-FS: Near New 35mm summilux F1.4 M ASPH (Chrome Version) with hood, leather case and box, gray market, just have it for few month and few rolls on it. all lens and cosmatic are prefect. no difference compare with band new. $1359.00
-FS user Leica Summilux 50mm 1:1.4 M black w/ hood --- Cosmetic condition is poor but with the exception of a nick on the back element it seems mechanically and optically to be fine and the results I have obtained seem to confirm that. Caps and hood included. Price $525
-... a chrome 35mm Summilux ASPH lens I need to sell. ... in mint condition, ... $1550 for the lens
-FS: Leica 50 Summicron Anniversary ... Serviced last month by Sherry Krauter. Perfect glass. Some normal wear, no dents or scratches. $700 firm
-FS: Leica Summicron 35 ASPH Black Paint!
... Willing to sacrifice. Mint. Shade and cap included but no box. $1450 + shipping. Firm
You see...the prices are in totally different world compared to todays prices! And those were ONLY SIX YEARS AGO! That kind of price increase would be OK in much longer period. 6 years is like yesterday. And let's not forget that these much higher prices have been for a while now.
If I convert those prices to the US$-Dutch Guilder rate then, and convert to Euros, they sound just about right for today, not too much change at all. For instance - 1550 $ was 2300 Guilders is now 1100 Euro, add about 20% inflation to reach 1350 Euro, which seems not unreasonable for a private sale of a Summicron 35 asph, seeing they run between 1000 and 1200 GBP (=1300 to 1600 Euro) at ffordes, including three monthes guarantee. I would call the prices stable.
It all depends on one's perspective. If I were living in Zimbabwe (which thankfully I am not) I might consider a price increase from 70.000 Zim$ to 700 Trillion Zim$ over the same period a bit excessive....
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HiredArm
Newbie
Do you think if I follow Lamborghini forum, I'd see lousy complaints of price of their cars? it should cost as a Toyota Camry according to people who like to dream
I think this is the thinking where there is a disconnect. The is a lot of wiggle room for comparison in between a $200K+ automobile and a $25K automobile. A Lamborghini has ALWAYS been a maker of exotic supercars. Most understand that. Yes they are exclusive and they price in line with the competition - whether it's price or more importantly performance. There prices are inline with the Ferrari, Aston Martin, Audi R8, high-end Porsche, AMG V-12's, etc. A Corvette Z06 performs in line with most Lamborghini's and thus from a performance standpoint some may feel that a Lamborghini is overpriced since you get equal or better performance for less than half the cost. I would personally suggest people try to make analogies that aren't quite as extreme just to make their point.
I believe that's what most here are making a point of. Leica is the only dRF on the market, which everyone agrees upon, but it has marketplace competition - which some don't seem to understand. There are people who are going to cross shop it with the higher end dSLR whether it's the same exact operation, concept or not. Some feel it's overpriced simply because the performance alone doesn't warrant a substantially higher price than what the competition offers right now. Some lenses cost more than the body and as shown in many online art galleries the CV and Zeiss lenses produce IQ and color rendition near the Leica glass for less of the cost for most comparable lenses. I don't think anyone is suggesting that Leica offer a dRF for under $500 but I think the $1000-2000 price range is quite feasible even if they needed to partner with a larger company. Would it cannibalize some M8 sales - well that's quite possible but it's not like M8's are flying off the shelf that fast. Here's a quick question - What's better selling five camera starter systems at $2000 or one at $8000?
pmu
Well-known
Tell me where did I say that it is injustice? And you all tell me where did I say that I can't afford buying leica?
I just don't see the point of buying something hugely expensive if there are equally good options available at the fraction of the price. The brand of the camera or lens does not mean sh*t to me. Call me narrow minded, but I don't get it why others do buy them.
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Jaap,
The big problem here is how you define 'afford'.
The best definition I have heard so far -- it may have been yours -- was 'able to buy it without significantly affecting my lifestyle'
But of course, you may opt to buy one thing over another. Personally, I can't see why anyone buys expensive trainers, or new clothes for reasons of fashion only, or a new fitted kitchen every few years... The examples can obviously be multiplied.
I choose Leicas, good food and travel as things I can afford. I dismiss new cars, eating out (when I am not travelling) and a holiday home as things I cannot afford. To use your colourful phrase, if I went to the brink, I could buy a house in Hungary or rural Spain. Some might consider that a wise investment.
I don't. I prefer to live an easy life, not working too hard, not buying new Leica gear very often, rather than working my arse off to pay for more things.
Cheers,
Roger
Roger Hicks
Veteran
'Injustice' was Keith's word, not yours. He has already agreed that this was a slight overstatement.
'Equally good options available at a fraction of the price' is another matter. You are no doubt referring to the dozens of manufacturers offering competing M-mount digital cameras for $2000 and below.
Often, the reason something is hugely expensive is because it is better. I'll go back to the example of Lobb Wellington boots: made to measure, infinitely reparable, extremely hard-wearing. Is that worth $4500 when you can buy a pair of cowboy boots at an outlet store for $45?
Well, yes -- IF you can afford $4,500. I can't so I wear $300 Mephistos instead. A pair of boots lasts me a couple of years.
You may well fail to understand why people buy new Leicas, just as I fail to understand why people buy 'designer label' clothes. We may both consider the purchasers of such things to have more money than sense.
But it's their money, and their sense, or lack of it. It really does come back to the simple truth: if something is not worth the money to you, or if you can't afford it, DON'T BUY IT.
Cheers,
Roger
Ray Nalley
Well-known
The problem Roger is that if followed your philosophy would end most internet forums!
We all like to cuss and discuss all kinds of camera stuff, whether we own it or not, or could ever afford it or not. Heck, there are even hotly debated threads about cameras that don't even exist (the micro 4/3's concept for example). That's what forums are for.
Besides, if you limited debate to those who own or want to own the cameras, then you would just have a bunch of cheerleaders talking to themselves. And what fun would that be?
We all like to cuss and discuss all kinds of camera stuff, whether we own it or not, or could ever afford it or not. Heck, there are even hotly debated threads about cameras that don't even exist (the micro 4/3's concept for example). That's what forums are for.
Besides, if you limited debate to those who own or want to own the cameras, then you would just have a bunch of cheerleaders talking to themselves. And what fun would that be?
jaapv
RFF Sponsoring Member.
Dear Roger, indeed, a matter of choices. Unfortunately, I am not very good at taking my own advice....
Roger Hicks
Veteran
Dear Ray,The problem Roger is that if followed your philosophy would end most internet forums!
Fair enough in one sense, but some people do seem to want to suspend the laws of economics (e.g. lower US prices on euro imports, when the euro is strengthening against the dollar) or even the laws of physics (putting a full-frame sensor into an M with existing technology).
"If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride," and this is the way an awful lot of people seem to think about Leicas.
It's fair to ask, "Why do Leicas cost so much?"
What puzzles me is the people who, having been told why a Leica costs so much (expensive components, labour-intensive assembly in a high-wage area, limited production) then say, "Why not use cheaper components and build it on a production line in a lower-wage country?"
There's a simple answer to that. "Why would you?"
Cosina, in association with Zeiss Ikon is already doing that. If you want that camera, buy a ZI or a Voigtländer. But don't demand that Leica puts their name on it to satisfy your ego ("I've got a LEICA!") or because Leicas cost more than you can afford.
Above all, don't say that because you don't want/can't afford a Leica, no-one should be allowed to have one, and hundreds of people should be thrown out of work -- because that is what people are saying when they say that Leica 'ought to go broke' or 'deserve to go bust' or whatever.
Cheers,
Roger
retow
Well-known
Rather than discussing wether someone can/should/wants to afford a new M8 at new list prices, how about looking at it from a different angle.
How many of exisitng M8 users would immediately rebuy a new (!) M8 at the new list price if theirs got lost? Considering that sensor technology has advanced meanwhile (eg FF wave, high iso performance) and September will potentially bring further proof of sensor technolgy having still significant potential.
Or with other words, do present or potential M8 owners perceive the VALUE(subjective) of an M8 to be in the range of its list price.
As far as I'm concerned, I would definitely replace mine, if there was need, but with a used one. From my subjective point of view, Leica, meanwhile, has priced the M8 outside the market.
How many of exisitng M8 users would immediately rebuy a new (!) M8 at the new list price if theirs got lost? Considering that sensor technology has advanced meanwhile (eg FF wave, high iso performance) and September will potentially bring further proof of sensor technolgy having still significant potential.
Or with other words, do present or potential M8 owners perceive the VALUE(subjective) of an M8 to be in the range of its list price.
As far as I'm concerned, I would definitely replace mine, if there was need, but with a used one. From my subjective point of view, Leica, meanwhile, has priced the M8 outside the market.
infrequent
Well-known
and leica's head in the sand strategy is good for their employees?!
Ray Nalley
Well-known
I think a lot of people are thinking that a cheaper Leica may be better than no Leica at all, which could happen if Leica prices itself out of business. Leica seems to be banking on the idea that there are enough buyers out there who are not price sensitive to sustain their business model. They may be right.
Whether a lower priced Leica DRF is a good idea (and I'm not completely sure it is) only time and Kaufmann will tell.
Whether a lower priced Leica DRF is a good idea (and I'm not completely sure it is) only time and Kaufmann will tell.