Various Followup
Various Followup
The point I am trying to make is that overall, like it or not, the M8 is still the best digital M choice for the time being. Moreover, this is likely to remain true for some time.
I think a lot of the M8's problem is people just expecting it to live up to the normal extremely high "perfect" Leica standard. For years Leica told everyone who would listen that a digital M was technically impossible. It really isn't an easy technical feat with today's technology.
The third tier, more likely about 10th tier, camera manufacturer reponsible for the Epson RD1 mess is Epson, not Cosina. While Cosina manufactured the bodies and RF mechanisms, Epson installed the electronics and did the final Quality Control. Flush with confidence in their unlimited printer success, Epson execs were sure they knew everything, and that the rangefinder marketplace would adjust itself to the wisdom of anything Epson wanted to do. hmm.
I used a M8 loaner for a week, and don't find the shutter noise objectionable at all. Louder than a cloth shutter M, sure. But terrible and loud? not to my ears.
I tend to be a realist. IF only one viable option is available at that point in time, I will either use it or not, but I don't see the point in complaining about choices I don't have.
Stephen Gandy
Various Followup
The point I am trying to make is that overall, like it or not, the M8 is still the best digital M choice for the time being. Moreover, this is likely to remain true for some time.
I think a lot of the M8's problem is people just expecting it to live up to the normal extremely high "perfect" Leica standard. For years Leica told everyone who would listen that a digital M was technically impossible. It really isn't an easy technical feat with today's technology.
The third tier, more likely about 10th tier, camera manufacturer reponsible for the Epson RD1 mess is Epson, not Cosina. While Cosina manufactured the bodies and RF mechanisms, Epson installed the electronics and did the final Quality Control. Flush with confidence in their unlimited printer success, Epson execs were sure they knew everything, and that the rangefinder marketplace would adjust itself to the wisdom of anything Epson wanted to do. hmm.
I used a M8 loaner for a week, and don't find the shutter noise objectionable at all. Louder than a cloth shutter M, sure. But terrible and loud? not to my ears.
I tend to be a realist. IF only one viable option is available at that point in time, I will either use it or not, but I don't see the point in complaining about choices I don't have.
Stephen Gandy
Ben Z
Veteran
sgy1962 said:
Actually, the M8 came "on the future horizon" after production of the RD-1 was announced. Up until that moment Leica had been maintaining steadfastly that a digital M was "impossible". The problems surrounding the RD-1 were: 1) lack of interest and no marketing by Epson, 2)Poor QC and horrible service/support from Epson, 3)price:value not perceived due to 1) and 2), and 3)lack of a Leica red dot
The final irony is, despite the fact it's basically now orphaned, sales of the RD-1 have actually re-ignited since the M8, due to the M8's "issues" and Leica's "solutions".Ben Z
Veteran
CameraQuest said:
I think most people were just expecting it to work as well as other digitals in its price class (or half or a quarter if its price) that is, to render black black and not need $120/ea filters over each lens to do so.
Yet that "10th-rate" Epson made one 2 years ago, and it didn't need IR filters. The problem with the RD-1 was not technological, it was strictly in the production and QC, and 99% of that relates to the Cosina mechanicals (rangefinder and shutter). There are relatively very few reports of failures of the digital electronics.
But before we cast too many aspersions against the "bad marriage" between Cosina and Epson that spawned the RD-1, lets not forget that Leica is not solely responsible for the M8. Just today news is out of impending difficulties between Leica AG and their partner for the M8 firmware, Jenoptik http://www.jenoptik.com/cps/rde/xchg/SID-26EE34DB-91B73C7C/jenoptik/hs.xsl/4582_4723.htm. Even if Jenoptik has a contractual obligation to continue to offer support to Leica on the M8, it's still worth remembering that Leica is dependent on outside sources.
Harry Lime
Practitioner
Nick R. said:
Ah, I see. I must have misread your post.
NIKON KIU
Did you say Nippon Kogaku?
Intersersting topic indeed,
I too wish for Nikon or Canon to put out an RF digital with lens options but what mount are they going to use?
Nikon hasn't produced a lens for RF since the 1960s, other than those twelve or so thousand re-issues and the same goes for Canon. I doubt these two camera giants would put out a Camera in Leica M mount!
SONY, Panasonic or Samyung....Hmmmm.
I bet the price of a Voigtlander(Nikon) rear cap by 2008 there will another one!
Foreseeable future could be a year not 2 or 3.
Kiu
I too wish for Nikon or Canon to put out an RF digital with lens options but what mount are they going to use?
Nikon hasn't produced a lens for RF since the 1960s, other than those twelve or so thousand re-issues and the same goes for Canon. I doubt these two camera giants would put out a Camera in Leica M mount!
SONY, Panasonic or Samyung....Hmmmm.
I bet the price of a Voigtlander(Nikon) rear cap by 2008 there will another one!
Foreseeable future could be a year not 2 or 3.
Kiu
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
"The point I am trying to make is that overall, like it or not, the M8 is still the best digital M choice for the time being. Moreover, this is likely to remain true for some time. "
Its the only choice which isn't saying much, especially for $5 grand.
" I think a lot of the M8's problem is people just expecting it to live up to the normal extremely high "perfect" Leica standard. "
Yes, that is my expectation for $5 grand.
"For years Leica told everyone who would listen that a digital M was technically impossible. It really isn't an easy technical feat with today's technology. "
Nothing is "impossible." Don't let this be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Hi Steve - (Smile)
Its the only choice which isn't saying much, especially for $5 grand.
" I think a lot of the M8's problem is people just expecting it to live up to the normal extremely high "perfect" Leica standard. "
Yes, that is my expectation for $5 grand.
"For years Leica told everyone who would listen that a digital M was technically impossible. It really isn't an easy technical feat with today's technology. "
Nothing is "impossible." Don't let this be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Hi Steve - (Smile)
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fgianni
Trainee Amateur
CameraQuest said:
And if no one complains, as you seem to suggest, how is the manufacturer supposed to know what the consumer considers acceptable or not in a product, and how are they going to improve next time.
I am sure that any future M digital body will have blacks as black as the Canon/Nikon ones.
fgianni
Trainee Amateur
I don't want to give the wrong impression, I don't consider the M8 a lemon, and despite one of the few lucky enough to own a good R-D1, I am still thinking that it would be nice to get an M8, and I may decide to get one next year.
Still I am angry at Leica for the shortcomings of the camera, the fact that they did not take more time to sort out the problems before releasing it (see Sigma), and the way they tried (and in part succeeded) to keep the reviewers quiet about the issue.
Should Canon/Nikon release a camera with similar issues everyone would jump at their throat, but somehow Leica seems untouchable.
Still I am angry at Leica for the shortcomings of the camera, the fact that they did not take more time to sort out the problems before releasing it (see Sigma), and the way they tried (and in part succeeded) to keep the reviewers quiet about the issue.
Should Canon/Nikon release a camera with similar issues everyone would jump at their throat, but somehow Leica seems untouchable.
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
I've been shooting w/ Leicas for the better part of 15 years and in the early days it took most if not all of my financial resources. Its been my passion to capture fleeting moments. I loved the Leica's high quality - both cam and lenses - but the M8 IMHO isn't anything to write home about - unless its asking for more money. In the field its going up against the Nikon and Canons. Its a tough sell in the digi market.
Aside the issues already well documented and discussed, I take isssue w/ its crop factor. The 50mm is now a 66mm, a 35mm is now a 46mm. Please give me a break.
Fortunately we've still got Portra, K64, and Ilford HP-5. I'm good.
Aside the issues already well documented and discussed, I take isssue w/ its crop factor. The 50mm is now a 66mm, a 35mm is now a 46mm. Please give me a break.
Fortunately we've still got Portra, K64, and Ilford HP-5. I'm good.
Toby
On the alert
I think the real problem with a digital M is the M mount itself. Every thing that makes the M mount good for film (close to the film plane) makes it bad for digital. I think if leica was honest they'd admit there would be no way anyone would start the plans for a digital RF with that design of lens mount. The M8 is an attempt to cash in on an installed user base, what leica really needs to do is start with a blank piece of paper. This would obviously enrage leica die hards, but at least we'd get a credible alternative to DSLR's whatever the final camera would look like.
It is also telling that the M8 is most often compared to the EOS 5d. In fact, I did some checking and if you look at the two systems as a whole. The cost of an M8 plus 24/2.8, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, and 90/2 is £10,000. An Eos 1DS mkII plus 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.2 (all L lenses) comes to £7,500. So effectively the DSLR that destroyed medium format, has a full frame sensor and 60% more pixels, works out cheaper as part of a comparative system than the M8. Not very relevent if you have lots of M glass but indicative of why Leica may not get too many new customers.
It is also telling that the M8 is most often compared to the EOS 5d. In fact, I did some checking and if you look at the two systems as a whole. The cost of an M8 plus 24/2.8, 35/1.4, 50/1.4, and 90/2 is £10,000. An Eos 1DS mkII plus 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.2 (all L lenses) comes to £7,500. So effectively the DSLR that destroyed medium format, has a full frame sensor and 60% more pixels, works out cheaper as part of a comparative system than the M8. Not very relevent if you have lots of M glass but indicative of why Leica may not get too many new customers.
John Camp
Well-known
I don't understand the complaints about the Leica costing $5,000. It's the companys' top-end camera. The top-end Canon cost half-again as much when it came out, and the Nikon cost as much, too. Is the argument that it's an inferior camera, somehow, so it shouldn't cost as much?
As to the shutter sound, I've got a bunch of cameras and listened to them all when people were talking about the M8 release. It's not louder than my M7, but different -- there's a "zing" at the end, but it's a heck of a lot quieter than a D2x or any SLR with a mirror to bounce around. And I think it's about the same (hard to tell) as an R-D1. The idea that it's a POS because of the sound it makes is completely MFS.
As in other forums, it seems most of the criticism comes from people who don't own one. Let's try to guess what kind of camera they do own...duh...
JC
As to the shutter sound, I've got a bunch of cameras and listened to them all when people were talking about the M8 release. It's not louder than my M7, but different -- there's a "zing" at the end, but it's a heck of a lot quieter than a D2x or any SLR with a mirror to bounce around. And I think it's about the same (hard to tell) as an R-D1. The idea that it's a POS because of the sound it makes is completely MFS.
As in other forums, it seems most of the criticism comes from people who don't own one. Let's try to guess what kind of camera they do own...duh...
JC
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
Well stated, Tody. Please project manage this task.
MCTuomey
Veteran
peter_n said:
peter, you're hilarious
35mmdelux
Veni, vidi, vici
John Camp said:
One does not need to jump into a cement mixer to have an opinion about it (smile). :bang:
Toby
On the alert
35mmdelux said:
I'm already at the arranging the biros on my desk stage. Stage two, the tea and coffee making facilities starts tomorrow.
DaveSee
shallow depth of field
If Canon gets "customers" who really think the 1DS "destroyed medium format", that's OK... at almost 2.5x less the total weight for the kit, just a wee bit better glass, and a RF, the M8 has no peer... just stuff "like" it. That's the point Stephen's making.Toby said:
There may be no real reason for any other company to enter this market... folks just ask, "What?! You have to focus?!" Yup, I even ignore the little red light meter LEDs too... and set WB by Kelvin... and disable auto preview... and do not use the A(E). "Why, I could buy a 1999 Japanese station wagon and a P&S(POS) for the money you spent... and black would be black too. You some kinda cult member?" Yes ma'am, I am... this time the drink is pinkish
rgds,
Dave
AusDLK
Famous Photographer
>And the (M8) shutter does sound horrible.
Jorge --
I truly appreciate you chiming on this.
>It sounds like a toy that needs a key to wind up the spring. Even worse, it
>sounds like something is just about to fall apart.
I've been saying this since the first day of Photokina. This completely destroys (for me, at least) all of the joy that comes from the precise, solid feeling that the film M cameras offer.
Not only that, hold the M8 in your hand, put it behind your back or close your eyes, and click the shutter. You can literally feel the POS vibrate in your hand. Yet another reason that the M8 is a complete pretender of an M camera.
Jorge --
I truly appreciate you chiming on this.
>It sounds like a toy that needs a key to wind up the spring. Even worse, it
>sounds like something is just about to fall apart.
I've been saying this since the first day of Photokina. This completely destroys (for me, at least) all of the joy that comes from the precise, solid feeling that the film M cameras offer.
Not only that, hold the M8 in your hand, put it behind your back or close your eyes, and click the shutter. You can literally feel the POS vibrate in your hand. Yet another reason that the M8 is a complete pretender of an M camera.
peter_n
Veteran
I'm serious Mike, and I'm disappointed that Stephen didn't answer the question. Plus I have no interest in the M8 so I just wanted to interject something interesting for the film fans...MCTuomey said:
peter_n said:I'm serious Mike, and I'm disappointed that Stephen didn't answer the question. Plus I have no interest in the M8 so I just wanted to interject something interesting for the film fans...
So Far As I know, the Bessa Wides Voigtlander R4M / R4A with their 21/25/28/35/50 framelines are on schedule to start shipping sometime in April 2007.
Unfortunately I have no insider knowledge of any future Voigtlander or Zeiss digital cameras. It is just after all the problems with the M8, I don't think any camera manufacturer is going to be in a rush to the M digital marketplace without extensive testing, and hopefully even better image quality. Time will tell, whatever the next digital M's are.
As a side note, I actually do prefer the ergonomics and handling of the RD1 to the M8. But to me the RD parts and repair situation knock it out of contention when combined with the M8's better image quality.
Stephen
peter_n
Veteran
Thank you Stephen!CameraQuest said: