M8-up with the best

You have a valid point about the resolution in terms of pixel number, but bit depth and dynamic range are just as important. However, I was referring to the "features" part of the discussion.
I find the argument "better" in this class rather meaningless anyway.
 
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For the record, DMR upsamples better than 1DsII, just because it has no AA filter.
1D had moiré because it had only 4 Mp.
Most DMR users very seldom encountered moiré and they always state that they take 99% sharper than 1% no-moiré anyday.

Btw, if there's no substitute for pixels, why did you say that 1DIIN has virtually the same image quality than 1DsII ? :)
 
About resolution in terms of megapixels, surely the difference between 10 and 16 is not really very significant. I would have thought that in cases where the number of pixels is really critical a MF digital back would be the tool of choice.
 
MarcoS Btw said:
Because it does. The files from the 1DIIN are a very close match to the 1DsII but smaller in size. The only real difference is the size of the file.

There is no substitute for pixels if you are upsampling. If the information doesn't exist in the file then no software will add that information. A prime example is when upsampling a shot with leaves in the scene. When upsampling the images start to look like sea sponges soaked in green paint. The leaf shape is gone and it now looks like clumps of green. I don't care if there is an AA filter or not if the information doesn't exist you can not upsample and add it.
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Better depends on use. If you need to supply a file to an art director who may crop out half the image and use it in a 2 page spread or you are printing mural size images then a 39MP medium format back is better. If your rangefinder images are generally printed with little or no cropping at 11 x 14 or smaller then 10MP can look as good or better then 39MP. If you are shooting fast paced reportage in low light, superior image quality won't matter if you can't get the shot. There is no best in all circumstances whether you are comapring rangefinder to slr or smaller format size to larger format size be it analogue or digital.
 
x-ray said:
Because it does. The files from the 1DIIN are a very close match to the 1DsII but smaller in size. The only real difference is the size of the file.
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Many others, myself included, think otherwise.

x-ray said:
There is no substitute for pixels if you are upsampling. If the information doesn't exist in the file then no software will add that information.
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Agreed, but upsampling a better per-pixel quality image always leads to a better image, sometimes nullifying the higher Mp advantage.

x-ray said:
A prime example is when upsampling a shot with leaves in the scene. When upsampling the images start to look like sea sponges soaked in green paint. The leaf shape is gone and it now looks like clumps of green. I don't care if there is an AA filter or not if the information doesn't exist you can not upsample and add it.
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Agreed here, distant leaves are IMO the hardest test for any sensor...
But if the leaves are somewhat blurred at the original size, due to the presence of a strong AA filter or less quality pixel, then we could get equal or better quality with an upsampled higer quality less Mp image.
To make an extreme analogy, I'm sure we'll get better quality from an upsampled Eos-1D 4.1 Mp image than from an 8 Mp P&S.
Clearly the 1DsII is all but a P&S... but you get the idea.

Moreover you agree that there's more than absolute resolution in an image.
Tonal rendition and dynamic range come to mind.
Indeed I'd be crazy to say that a full frame 18 Mp Leica M9 would give the same quality of today M8, but this is because I assume that at worst they'll use the same sensor's technology.
Comparing different brands is somewhat less straightforward.
Even comparing between different sensors of the same brand (like Eos-20D vs Eos-1DII) would give different results than pure numbers would suggest.

Cheers :)

Marco
 
Btw Don, out-standing images on your site !

I love your x-ray images.

Interesting the technique you use to photograph the flowers.

I run a medical radiology center and I'm amazed to see some artistic contents passing through x-rays.
Your subjects are definitely more pleasant to the eye than what we use to see here... ;)

My best compliments :)

Marco
 
Thanks Marcos! Look at my other work ans see a total 180 degree shift from the x-rays. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=5045

I started as a PJ and since the early 70's have had a commercial studio.

I still shoot a great deal of editorial and documantary work.

Digital has been my commercial studio work horse for the past seven years but film is what I use in my documentary work. I've shot Leica M's mainly for nearly 40 years.

As to the moire issue. I don't think it has anything to do with MP's. The 12 mp Kodak FF DSLR was terrible for moire too.
 
Great images over there also!
Definitely a 180° shift... you are a 360° photographer, but you don't make panos... :p

Seriously Don, keep up the good work!

Ciao :)

Marco
 
boilerdoc2 said:
Xray: How are the leaves in the Smokies this year?
Steve in Indiana
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In the valley the color is OK in some areas and brilliant in others. Overall in the valley it's good but no the best I've seen. I had an aerial shoot north of here yesterday and flew a helicopter along the cumberlands and was disappointed in the colors there. Seems like in the higher areas the leaves have fallen off or just turned brown. I thought the color was going to be spectacular but dopesn't look like it will make it this year.

Our spring wasn't as wet this year and the summer heat lasted longer which probably had an effect.
 
I just held M8 in leica store, well it looks lovely :) I can actualy buy it if I want to (but ofcourse I dont) :) but I bought leica flash :)
 
jaapv : Heh, yeah it was very tempting :D in fact sales person tryed to sell me M7 or MP with very low price, but I am not up to second body at the momment, when I sell my SLR gear, maybe I will go for MP :) Now I need 28mm elmarit asph!
 
Nachkebia said:
http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1038&message=20626808
Check this out, What a disaster, How can someone shoot picture for heart with this plastic, lifeless look?
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The DR in those images is sensational!! Not....

Next! <shoves the M8 to the side>

On a serious note: I'm sure the M8 can perform better than these samples if post processed correctly(which could suggest an unusable JPEG mode on the M8) Where are those haters now, the ones who laughed when I called out Leica's poor marketing for not releasing any *good looking* official images?
 
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Camera is on sale, so I guess everyone can post images :) I could have bought one today and could have posted some images actualy :)
 
Actually, just taking a look on Leica's website, the current brochure contains what looks to be images from the M8, albeit low res ones and compressed into the PDF document. They look good, as expected. However, in the digital game, they need to provide official full res samples, just like what Canon does on their website.
 
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