M8 Upgrade costs and the declining Economy

aizan said:
Phase 1: collect underpants.
Phase 2: ...?
Phase 3: PROFIT!!!

what's leica's business model? anyone?
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I'm guessing (and it's a wild guess here), that they consider their labor costs as an investment, not an expense, as is pervasive in American models. The modern German model takes into consideration the wild idea that humans perform better when they are paid for their expertise, and their health and well-being is optimal. In the American model this is considered socialist pandering and an unnecessary cost which --if you do without-- in the short term provides for high margin profits. In the German model, long-term is best.

It is better to earn $20 each day from a profit margin of 2% for 5 years of something "overpriced" that reflects its true labor cost in your community, than to earn $40 each day from a profit margin of 10% (e.g. "overpriced") for 2 years of something "priced just right" before you have to sell-out, declare bankruptcy, or layoff your workforce to outsource it to China because of high employee turnover and re-training problems.
 
hmm.. so there's no real definition of "overpriced" then? or does this mean that "overpriced" means different things to different people?

Just curious of course, since no one seems to be able to answer that question.

Cheers,
Dave
 
dcsang said:
hmm.. so there's no real definition of "overpriced" then? or does this mean that "overpriced" means different things to different people?

Just curious of course, since no one seems to be able to answer that question.
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If it costs me $0.10 to make a bottle of water, and sell it at $1.00, and it costs me $5.00 to create a gallon of organic milk, and sell it for $5.50, I'd say that the bottle of water is overpriced.
 
Gabriel M.A. said:
If it costs me $0.10 to make a bottle of water, and sell it at $1.00, and it costs me $5.00 to create a gallon of organic milk, and sell it for $5.50, I'd say that the bottle of water is overpriced.
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Good example Gabe.

So do any of us here, except maybe.. and I mean MAYBE.. Roger, really know how much it costs Leica to make, oh, say, anything?

What I'm trying to get at here, based on your example, is without a frame of reference; not another company, another camera maker, another manufacturer, but the base costs to produce the item in question (whether it's to write software or produce a new lens or such), we really can't say if something is "overpriced" or not.

We can assume that it is (or is not), based on our inability (or ability) to pay for said item.

Cheers,
Dave
 
russianRF said:
I really don't give a damn what you want, what you can afford, etc. I just have an opinion about Leica and their pricing. That's all.
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i have an idea for you; don't buy a f*cking leica. you seem to be awfully worked up and opinionated about something that has NOTHING to do with you. are you angry at porsche too?
let it go...

bob
 
Don't know if it is an answer, but I look at stuff in terms of value. It was easy to see that the housing bubble was going to burst because a three bedroom, brick, ranch style home isn't really worth $350,000. But they were going for that and more. If real value isn't there, eventually the price is going to nose dive.

Digital Leica RF's sell for what they do because they have no real competition in the category and many film RF users with expensive lenses want to move to digital. Film RF cameras sell for what they do for a lot of reasons: emotional, physical, etc. Is their real value in either equal to their price? Probably not. Digital cameras lose value fairly quickly - look at the price of used M8's these days. Film Leicas have a lot of non-tangible connections that keep the prices up; but, should film become scarce, their value would likely drop significantly.

As for overpriced, that is a comparison. Is an M8 overpriced compared to a 5DMkII? Probably, but then the 5DMkII isn't a rangefinder.
 
So do any of us here, except maybe.. and I mean MAYBE.. Roger, really know how much it costs Leica to make, oh, say, anything?
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No idea, but seeing as they always seem to be in a precarious financial state, and have to collaborate with other companies to make a lot of their products, probably quite a lot of money.

It would be surprising if they were profitable, but I guess people who object to Leica prices object to the value for money end of the equation than the possibility that Kaufmann is lighting his cigars with 500 Euro notes 😉
 
bob338 said:
i have an idea for you; don't buy a f*cking leica. you seem to be awfully worked up and opinionated about something that has NOTHING to do with you. are you angry at porsche too?
let it go...

bob
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Tu quoque, or to translate, "you yourself," or "you as well."

I want a film Leica, would pay the premium for it, and have said as much. I haven't really been that angry at all; most of the anger and invective has come from Leica owners who seem to take my criticism of a company *very* personally.

I've posted no more here in this thread than some of the people who disagree with me. I've outlined my ideas and beliefs in a calm, collected manner. I got a little testy, ONCE, because I was tired of someone taking my opinions so personally, when there was no reason to do so.

And don't worry, even if I had the money, I would indeed not be buying an M8/8.2 at any time in the near future. I do believe I am allowed to have an opinion about it. While my opinion is debatable, I wouldn't consider it terribly unreasonable, since there are companies that make arguably more complex cameras than the M8 yet somehow manage to charge less money for it. If someone has an opinion that the M8 is worth the money, great; if that person can afford to buy the M8, even better.

I don't have anything against Porche, either, but I know that you can buy a Corvette for much less money, and that many reputable auto review magazines (like "Car & Driver") have said that you'd get a lot more for your money out of the Corvette than the Porche. But just stating my opinion about Porche isn't an attach on Porche owners personally. Likewise, there's no reason to get upset about my comments reguarding the M8. If it's a good camera for you personally, then wonderful for you. I personally think Leica could grow its brand and make more profit in the long run if they didn't charge as much, and didn't charge as much for the upgrades. That's just my opinion. That's all I've ever really said.
 
dcsang said:
Good example Gabe.

So do any of us here, except maybe.. and I mean MAYBE.. Roger, really know how much it costs Leica to make, oh, say, anything? . . . We can assume that it is (or is not), based on our inability (or ability) to pay for said item.

Cheers,
Dave
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Dear Dave,

No, I don't know what it costs Leica to make anything, though I do know a modest amount about their relative production costs for different products. I know where a lot of the money goes, e.g. hand-lapping focusing mounts, though last time I was at the factory, they were working on a prototype machine to mechanize that, too.

I also know (having been to both Solms and Oberkochen) that German-made Zeiss lenses are roughly comparable in price with Leica because they have comparable labour costs and production standards. If you can, get hold of a book from the 1950s called Miniature and Precision Cameas by Lipinski, as this explains quite a lot about the engineering and inspection skills involved. More than most people know, anyway.

I know quite a lot about photography, and the photographic process, and using cameras. I don't know anything like as much about manufacturing cameras (except large format cameras) or about business, so I am constantly humbled by those on the forum who know more about either than I, and apparently more than Andreas Kaufmann too.

Cheers,

Roger
 
I've posted no more here in this thread than some of the people who disagree with me. I've outlined my ideas and beliefs in a calm, collected manner.
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Well that's enough to upset the Leica faithful, russianRF. It's not a tool to perform a task, it's a religion, so the faithful rush in and protect it against infidels like you. 😀

You can try all you like to be objective about it, but objectivity has no place in a discussion about faith.
 
... I am constantly humbled by those on the forum who know more about either than I, and apparently more than Andreas Kaufmann too.
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More of your mock humility, Roger? Here's a blast from the past to remind you why your humility should be of the genuine sort:

Originally Posted by JT
Can you say medium format and autofocus? You have probably seen this before but it is worth mentioning again that Leica will most likely be showing off a cool medium format sensor camera. Is there any validity to this? I guess we will have to wait a few more days.

I can say 'medium format and autofocus' but I can also say 'fairies at the bottom of the garden', 'little green men' and 'new f/1 lenses for $2000'.

In other words, I'd be astonished if there were an iota of truth in this.

Cheers,

Roger
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kevin m said:
More of your mock humility, Roger? Here's a blast from the past to remind you why your humility should be of the genuine sort:
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Dear Kevin,

I was indeed astonished, as I said I would be.

I don't need a great deal of mock humility. As you say, I've been wrong often enough.

Then again, I'm willing to admit it.

Tashi delegs,

Roger
 
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